How to fly with another pilot?

[201er]

I don't fly much with other pilots but when I do, I notice so much sloppiness and mistakes that it disturbs me. I'm by no means the world's greatest pilot but I'd like to think that I'm pretty on top of things. It's rare to fly with someone that does everything as I would do or better. I'd like to go flying with someone that leaves me thinking, "damn, I wish I could be that good." But in reality, I see a lot of the opposite.

In my earlier days I would point all those things out but then nobody would want to fly with me and it wasn't fun. I don't meant o be a debbie downer. So I mostly just keep my mouth shut but wonder. I would hate to see someone I know get in an accident knowing I didn't say something when I saw it. I just try to figure if the guy's been flying this long, he must at least be good enough to keep himself out of deep trouble.

Some guys can't hold altitude/heading. And this is in their own planes! I'm not even talking about someone flying my bird which they might be less familiar with. These aren't beginners either. The non-professional pilot community seems a bit too lax and particularly improficient. I try to hold myself to at least commercial/instrument standards at all times.

Am I being too critical? Last guy I flew with forgot the pitot cover on so I just took it off and handed it to him asking if he wants to know his speed. Then he had a fuel gauge reading zero but he said he's been meaning to get it fixed. Then he pulls onto the runway and never set the DG so I didn't say anything but just set it for him. If a guy isn't using a checklist and can't remember basic things, makes you wonder how he'll handle more serious issues than that.

Am I being too critical? How do you deal with flying with someone that gives you the impression that they barely know what they are doing? Do you say it or keep your mouth shut and be nice?

Edited March 31, 2016 by 201er

[Oscar Avalle]

I don't think you are to critical or tough. If you help somebody "remember" to take off the pitot tube cover, your are being helpful. I agree with you that checklists are important and their use or non use are a sign at least of the mindset of a pilot.

Now having said that I believe you have to differentiate between issues of style and substance.

I may not like how you communicate on the radio, but this does not necessarily make you a bad pilot, as long as everybody understands what you are saying. Would I raise that with you? Most likely not. This I would classify as style...

However, if you don't use a checklist or don't do a walk around or a run up, I would ask why you are not doing it...and possibly I would prefer not fly with you...because I see this as an issue of substance.

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[PTK]

You can make a polite suggestion but unless you've been given explicit instructions by the PIC it's not your place to touch and change things. You can always decline to fly with the individual. But if you fly with him/her you keep your hands to yourself!

When I'm PIC with another pilot/pax that's the rule and I respect that when I'm in the right seat with another pilot.

[1524J]

19 minutes ago, 201er said:

 How do you deal with flying with someone that gives you the impression that they barely know what they are doing? Do you say it or keep your mouth shut and be nice?

Combination.....say it......nicely.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I've sat right seat only a couple of times and I guess I was lucky that the guys in the left seat seemed to know what they were doing. However, I remember one exception. I was riding jump in a Citation with a crew that was unfamiliar with the Denver area. As we descended VFR into town en route to Centennial, I noticed that they had the plane pointed to Denver International. I politely directed them to the proper airport and they were embarrassed but grateful! Their boss riding in the back wouldn't have taken kindly to that kind of f**k up.

I've also flown with other pilots in the right seat (not CFI's, but friends) and either I'm doing things right or they're biting their tongues. The only one who ever said anything to me was a fellow Mooney pilot who made this comment when it became clear I forgot to close the cowl flap in level cruise: "Do you think we might pick up a few knots if you close that cowl flap?" I thought it was hilarious the way he handled it.

I definitely wouldn't take kindly to a pilot passenger touching anything on the panel without my approval.

[midlifeflyer]

17 minutes ago, 201er said:

I don't fly much with other pilots but when I do, I notice so much sloppiness and mistakes that it disturbs me. I'm by no means the world's greatest pilot but I'd like to think that I'm pretty on top of things. It's rare to fly with someone that does everything as I would do or better. I'd like to go flying with someone that leaves me thinking, "damn, I wish I could be that good." But in reality, I see a lot of the opposite.

In my earlier days I would point all those things out but then nobody would want to fly with me and it wasn't fun. I don't meant o be a debbie downer. So I mostly just keep my mouth shut but wonder. I would hate to see someone I know get in an accident knowing I didn't say something when I saw it. I just try to figure if the guy's been flying this long, he must at least be good enough to keep himself out of deep trouble.

Some guys can't hold altitude/heading. And this is in their own planes! I'm not even talking about someone flying my bird which they might be less familiar with. These aren't beginners either. The non-professional pilot community seems a bit too lax and particularly improficient. I try to hold myself to at least commercial/instrument standards at all times.

Am I being too critical? Last guy I flew with forgot the pitot cover on so I just took it off and handed it to him asking if he wants to know his speed. Then he had a fuel gauge reading zero but he said he's been meaning to get it fixed. Then he pulls onto the runway and never set the DG so I didn't say anything but just set it for him. If a guy isn't using a checklist and can't remember basic things, makes you wonder how he'll handle more serious issues than that.

Am I being too critical? How do you deal with flying with someone that gives you the impression that they barely know what they are doing? Do you say it or keep your mouth shut and be nice?

It is tough to know what you should say without seeing what you are seeing.

The very first thing to be aware of is whether what you see as wrong and lax is simply a difference in technique. Are you seeing something that potentially compromises safety or is it just a different technique than the one you would use. We all think our way is right; the question is whether their way is wrong.

More than 20 years ago, as a newly-rated instrument pilot I had an IPC with a CFII who told me the way the CFII I did my IR with taught me to do hold entries was all wrong (although pretty similar) and pushed me to use his because it was the "right" one. Being fairly green, I went along. The result? Both techniques were useless and I ended up having  to retrain myself using neither of their techniques. Fast forward a few years. I flew with a very experienced professional pilot. Airline guy in the GA aircraft he owned for years. Same make/model as the one I was flying at the time. I though his VFR gear-down procedure was great and decided to change the one I had been using for more than 5 years. The result? The closest I ever came to landing gear up.

As an instructor who, especially recently, has been doing a lot more flying with owners in their own airplanes, I probably see far more in the way of techniques that I think can be done much, much better and more "professionally." But my experience has led me to watch those with a completely different viewpoint.  Is that final approach that I think is way too high a sign of bad piloting, or is it a pilot who simply prefers a steeper VFR approach? Is it stabilized and result in consistently good landings? Does the entry of frequencies in the Nav/Comms that looks to me to be haphazard, lead to confusion by the pilot? In simple terms - does it work? I've come to the conclusion that there are a variety of techniques that accomplish the same end result and that the  single very worst thing a CFI can do is try to change a pilot technique that works, just because I think there is a better one. True safety issues sure, but just different from you? Leave it alone. 

So my questions back to you - rhetorical; it's for you to answer for yourself: (1)  is what you are seeing truly bad and incompetent or is it merely different? and (2) do you have the ability to tell the difference?

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

Yes.  You asked.

[201er]

Just now, midlifeflyer said:

True safety issues sure, but just different from you? Leave it alone. 

So my questions back to you - rhetorical; it's for you to answer for yourself: (1)  is what you are seeing truly bad and incompetent or is it merely different? and (2) do you have the ability to tell the difference?

Thing is, I'm not talking about "technique." I fully understand and accept that they can vary and may be good for one persona and not another.

I'm talking about obvious lapses in SOP. Not taking off a pitot cover, not setting DG, not sumping tanks after adding fuel, etc. None of these individual lapses are likely to lead to an accident but they pose a concerning glimpse into the pilot making them. These are the visible lapses in judgement. Can't even begin to imagine the invisible ones.

[carusoam]

How do you handle the same situations when riding in a car?

A) ask... Can I share an observation with you?

B ) give your opinion without asking.

C) curl up in fear while screaming your opinion.

D) Quietly depart the vehicle not saying anything.

 

This is more a human interaction question than what is the right or wrong way to handle it.  Be open, be yourself.  There is always going to be a better way.

Suggestion, try your skills with a challenging personality that you are familiar with.  Try to open the topic that an Aspen may be better than his tried in true Swiss movement BK device.  If you are really smooth with your skills, allow him to take you flying and discuss why big G may not be the supplier of choice for nav radios...

Going flying with other pilots can be challenging. Being patient and humble isn't always going to be easy.

There are parts of being a CFI and CFII that are really interesting...

As the other pilot, it takes an interest in improving those skills.  The other pilot that is short on skills and is not interested in improving, will get a no vote from you and he probably won't invite you to go flying either...

Open two way conversation is not easy for everyone in all situations.

Wait until you go driving with your Mother in law, Or your own kids...  When and how you speak up are going to be critical to your future...  

Best regards,

-a-

[Jeff_S]

As a new pilot I was very concerned that there was a RIGHT WAY to do everything and strived very hard to do things THIS WAY. I suppose that's a good practice to start out with, if your primary instructor has been teaching good methods. As I gained experience and flew with more people, I realized that there can be much more flexibility in what could be considered the RIGHT WAY and that they can all work. There are definitely hard lines that cross boundaries of safety, but beyond that, I don't worry too much about how other pilots manage their birds. I've learned to recognize those situations that might actually put me in jeopardy, and thankfully they have been very few. But when I did see them, I didn't hesitate to point them out...tactfully!

[PTK]

On March 31, 2016 at 1:12 PM, 201er said:

...I'm talking about obvious lapses in SOP. Not taking off a pitot cover, not setting DG, not sumping tanks after adding fuel, etc. None of these individual lapses are likely to lead to an accident but they pose a concerning glimpse into the pilot making them. These are the visible lapses in judgement. Can't even begin to imagine the invisible ones.

Retracting flaps before positive ROC poses" a concerning glimpse into thepilot" doing so and can certainly lead to an accident. Perhaps the pilot in the right seat should reach over and stop you from retracting the flaps incorrectly? 

 

On March 31, 2016 at 0:19 PM, 201er said:

I don't fly much with other pilots but when I do, I notice so much sloppiness and mistakes that it disturbs me. I'm by no means the world's greatest pilot but I'd like to think that I'm pretty on top of things. It's rare to fly with someone that does everything as I would do or better. I'd like to go flying with someone that leaves me thinking, "damn, I wish I could be that good." But in reality, I see a lot of the opposite.

In my earlier days I would point all those things out but then nobody would want to fly with me and it wasn't fun. I don't meant o be a debbie downer. So I mostly just keep my mouth shut but wonder. I would hate to see someone I know get in an accident knowing I didn't say something when I saw it. I just try to figure if the guy's been flying this long, he must at least be good enough to keep himself out of deep trouble.

Some guys can't hold altitude/heading. And this is in their own planes! I'm not even talking about someone flying my bird which they might be less familiar with. These aren't beginners either. The non-professional pilot community seems a bit too lax and particularly improficient. I try to hold myself to at least commercial/instrument standards at all times...

Judging others with such a condescending attitude is a character flaw which impedes your learning.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/9817-how-long-do-you-wait-to-retract-flaps-on-takeoff/?do=findComment&comment=111950

 

[201er]

Just now, PTK said:

Retracting flaps before positive ROC can certainly lead to an accident. Do you want the person in the right seat to reach over and stop you from retracting the flaps at the wrong time?

When to retract flaps is a technique. Forgetting to retract them all together is poor operating procedure and poor situational awareness. We've all been there, I'm sure. But how many small screw ups lead to a big one?

[PTK]

Better to have the correct technique rather than by feeling comfy! 

Retracting flaps without any regard of pos ROC is a major screw-up! It is "lax" and not "proficient".  No matter what you call it.

[gsengle]

Yes id like to see a discussion of GA 2 pilot approach to CRM

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[Yooper Rocketman]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

.........and discuss why big G may not be the supplier of choice for nav radios...

Your kidding right?

Sorry, I just had to poke the pig.

Tom

[PMcClure]

I tell every passenger to keep their fingers off my panel, this goes especially for other pilots, CFI's and even flight examiners. 

[TWinter]

Edit..

 

 

 

  

[Guest]

In my experience pilots make some of the worst passengers, they talk a lot when they should know better. There are some who I would not allow to fly my wife or children, then there are others who I would only fly with if I am in the right seat and able to beat them unconscious should the need arise.

I don't mind if they dial up a frequency in the stand by or show me a feature on my avionics which I don't know about

Lately I've been flying with our local pilots group, it's a real eye opener seeing them operate their planes.  Sadly in Canada we don't have the BFR flight test that you have, we are able to qualify by attending some BS seminars.  

Clarence

[bonal]

The only pilot I would have the opportunity to fly with is my friend/ CFI and his flying skills never cease to amaze me. When he is my PAX I expect every deficiency to be brought up and discussed. But I have a secret weapon the little red button on my yoke that every one thinks is my push to talk actually operates the right seat ejection device. Any of you perfect gods gift to aviation are welcome to fly with me any time you like.

[Marauder]

I don't fly much with other pilots but when I do, I notice so much sloppiness and mistakes that it disturbs me. I'm by no means the world's greatest pilot but I'd like to think that I'm pretty on top of things. It's rare to fly with someone that does everything as I would do or better. I'd like to go flying with someone that leaves me thinking, "damn, I wish I could be that good." But in reality, I see a lot of the opposite.

In my earlier days I would point all those things out but then nobody would want to fly with me and it wasn't fun. I don't meant o be a debbie downer. So I mostly just keep my mouth shut but wonder. I would hate to see someone I know get in an accident knowing I didn't say something when I saw it. I just try to figure if the guy's been flying this long, he must at least be good enough to keep himself out of deep trouble.

Some guys can't hold altitude/heading. And this is in their own planes! I'm not even talking about someone flying my bird which they might be less familiar with. These aren't beginners either. The non-professional pilot community seems a bit too lax and particularly improficient. I try to hold myself to at least commercial/instrument standards at all times.

Am I being too critical? Last guy I flew with forgot the pitot cover on so I just took it off and handed it to him asking if he wants to know his speed. Then he had a fuel gauge reading zero but he said he's been meaning to get it fixed. Then he pulls onto the runway and never set the DG so I didn't say anything but just set it for him. If a guy isn't using a checklist and can't remember basic things, makes you wonder how he'll handle more serious issues than that.

Am I being too critical? How do you deal with flying with someone that gives you the impression that they barely know what they are doing? Do you say it or keep your mouth shut and be nice?

Mike -- is your conscious bothering you? You and I spoke about someone once that was involved in something that wasn't so nice. Is this what is driving this thread?

I have a buddy who is the CFII that does my IPCs with me. He is not bashful about telling me if I am dumb arse for doing something wrong but at the same time, I tell him things that he does that I don't like either. An example, I am religious about a flow method backed by checklists that I use on all phases of flight. He uses an abbreviated checklist fixed to his panel that hits the killer items. It is an open conversation and not something we are bashful to discuss with each other.

Where this gets hard is with someone you don't have that kind of relationship with and how to handle it. I recently flew safety pilot with someone who has lots of hours, but clearly was rusty. When we finished the 6 approaches and the holds, I was honest with him about his sloppy flying but probably should have stated he fly with me more since he was not up to PTS standards.

To answer your question -- no you are not being too critical.

[bonal]

That being said from all I have read on this forum I've no doubt that most of my fellow Mooney pilots skill far surpasses mine and would welcome any constructive criticism as I've much to learn.

[chrisk]

Ok, I'm not even sure where to start. 

• I love watching 201er's videos and seeing how often the stall warning is going off when he lands.
• I've forgotten to put the flaps up  (very rarely)
• I've forgotten to put the gear up (just once)
• I've adopted a "cruise" check list where I check the flaps, gear, and cowl flaps. 
• I use check lists from start up to take off.
• I can't stand it when some one changes a setting on the panel.  Mostly because, I don't know what else has changed?
• I perform GUMPS 3 times before landing, and a gear check on short final.
• If a pilot sees me doing something wrong and can explain why, I have no issues with them letting me know.
• I've ridden with a scary pilot before. --Who needs a clearance to get above that layer.    I find scary pilots rare and one ride is enough for me.
• I'd be happy to fly with 201er, and if he has a comment about my flying, I have no problem with it.

[N33GG]

I have flown with many other pilots, some of them more experienced than me, and some less experienced.  Some pilots are a real joy to fly with.  

I flew a lot of right seat time with a very experienced pilot, and every time I offered him any kind of help, he always said "Thank you".  Don't know if he always meant it, but he always said it.  That made communications very comfortable, and I learned to do the same for people flying with me.

On the flip side, I have flown with experienced pilots that I tried to help, and they got offended, belligerent, and generally a-holes.  Totally kills the incentive to communicate, and does not promote safety of flight.  I try not to be that guy.

I have flown with very wealthy, famous, and sometimes older pilots who have much more aircraft than they really should be flying.  One family had me flying right seat in an MU-2 to keep an eye on things.  This can be a difficult situation, as you don't want to embarrass or hurt an ego.  With the family members and/or friends on board, I would very quietly whisper things like "heading", "altitude", "decision height", etc.  Nobody knew a thing, except me and the pilot, and he looked like a champ.

Less experienced pilots are already nervous and self conscious, and more likely therefore to make mistakes.  They need helpful and friendly support that is not criticizing or lecturing or condescending.  Be positive and supportive.  It will be appreciated.  

Caution: If your are not a trained and licensed CFI, don't try to be one.  You are a pilot helping your fellow pilot.  There's a lot more to instructing than meets the eye.  If you want to be an instructor, get trained and licensed first.

You have to adjust your communication to the situation presented.  Try to be respectful, polite, professional, and gracious with your fellow pilot.  Try to be someone that others will enjoy flying with.  

And always, and I do mean always, say "Thank you".

[201er]

47 minutes ago, chrisk said:

 

• I love watching 201er's videos and seeing how often the stall warning is going off when he lands.

What do you mean by this? Is this sarcasm or what is the direct meaning?

 

I don't consider myself far above beginner. I'm always learning. A lot from myself and a bunch from others. I don't think I'm so high and mighty to criticize others nor do I get enjoyment out of it. But I've been in aviation long enough to know when certain things are off. This leaves me conflicted on the interpersonal relationship of flying in another pilot's plane. It's one of the reasons I rarely fly with others.

I would love to fly with guys who are better than me and learn from them. On the other hand, I'm not sure what is best when flying with someone I feel (from observing) is worse. Speak up and be a jerk or just shut up and avoid flying with them in the future? I guess this is why hangar talk and forum talk is simplest rather than direct contact with someone in flight.

[gsengle]

But my question, which no one has tried to answer, is if you do want to fly as a 2 person crew, what is a good division of responsibilities?

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