Mt Propeller Paint Delamination

[Seth]

On 3/15/2016 at 11:02 AM, aviatoreb said:

Is it possible to change the leading edge treatment?  I got the nickel leading edge treatment which is a significantly deeper sheath covering the leading edge of the blades, specifically because it is designed to make the leading edges more durable to dings.  Can it be added after the fact?  Have you seen what it looks like?

If not, then I bet leading edge tape might do the trick.

I like this idea, and the Nickel looks good too - Erik - want to repost your awesome 4 blade prop for the masses?

-Seth

[Bob]

Peter Marshall from MT Prop in FL has been very professional and helpful from the beginning with my initial pre-purchase inquiry, time of purchase and now with this paint adhesion issue.  As they say, "it's not the problem, but rather how you handle the problem."

He has encouraged me to schedule the repair during a timeframe when downtime is not an issue, like next winter, and has suggested and given approval for a repair after the 1 year warranty period.

Quote from Peter Marshall:  "The nickel leading edges are used on all of our turbine propellers and are starting to make their way onto the reciprocating propellers as well.  At the present time the nickel leading edges are not available for your blade type." 

It will be interesting to see how much more paint come off over the next 6 months. If I am lucky, the nickel leading edge, may become available with a delayed repair?

 

 

[KSMooniac]

It would be great if they can make a design change to fix this problem.  Otherwise, it is a great propeller system, but the paint issue is a glaring defect and has been for years.  I think there is a bit of German arrogance in their failure to recognize it for so long.   Glad to hear the US rep is going to take care of you.

[Bob]

Just now, KSMooniac said:

It would be great if they can make a design change to fix this problem.  Otherwise, it is a great propeller system, but the paint issue is a glaring defect and has been for years.  I think there is a bit of German arrogance in their failure to recognize it for so long.   Glad to hear the US rep is going to take care of you.

German arrogance??

Like using cotton thread for cabriolet automobile tops?  Salt and water break down cotton!  So the material held up fine, just fell apart at the seams.

Or water soluble glue on door entry kick trim panels?  Wash your car more than once a week and the rubber trim piece will fall off in the parking lot.

I think they may have changed at this point, but not sure, my remarks are taken only from a 20 year long timeframe in the 80's & 90's.

Just to add information relevant to this thread.  For those that are curious the paint product used on Mt-Propellers is PPG concept urethane acrylic paint.

[aviatoreb]

8 hours ago, Bob said:

Erik- When I read your first post about the nickel, I appreciated the information, since I was not aware of the option.  

It may make sense to swap out overhauled blades rather than pull all the stainless off of mine. I'm waiting on more information from MT on this.  Any pics to share of your nickel blades?  Do you remember the up charge for the nickel?  At the time of purchase, for what benefit did you justify the upcharge for the option?

Looks like I do everything for the warranty claim and then figure out my final direction while at Oshkosh.

Hi Bob, I am almost embarrassed to say how much the uncharge was - but I think it was was $750 per blade extra for the deeper nickel.  Why did I do it?  I read extensively and I read about exactly the problem you are having and that these leading edges mitigate the problem entirely (so claimed but backed by some feedback) and make for a much more durable blade - the back country folk seemed to like the treatment.  So I figured if I were going to get MT I had better get the durable version or I would be kicking myself later.

Here is a picture where you can see the leading edges.

[Seth]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Hi Bob, I am almost embarrassed to say how much the uncharge was - but I think it was was $750 per blade extra for the deeper nickel.  Why did I do it?  I read extensively and I read about exactly the problem you are having and that these leading edges mitigate the problem entirely (so claimed but backed by some feedback) and make for a much more durable blade - the back country folk seemed to like the treatment.  So I figured if I were going to get MT I had better get the durable version or I would be kicking myself later.

Here is a picture where you can see the leading edges.

Love the four blade look!

[Seth]

Very helpful topic.  

On the three blade the shortest length of the blade with the nickel leading edge is 77 inches.

[carusoam]

@Seth

With 300hp...

it would take a more airfoil like design (wider chord?) to spread the thrust out over shorter blades...

i have seen some funky prop designs to allow for being short... but I don’t know the effect on speed and efficiency for those designs...

The topProp for the O is 76” can be shortened to 75”... 80LBs... get the thin version for lighter weight... (Acclaim Prop)

http://hartzellprop.com//products/top-prop/mooney/m20r-no-anti-ice/

If you want a pirep on this set-up StevenL is the goto guy around here... his memory is way stronger than mine... and he is much closer to the resource than I am...   

Comparing the MT to the composite TopProp might be an interesting challenge...

Getting a prop built can take months... compared to a few weeks to have an engine built...

Best regards,

-a-

[FoxMike]

On the subject of paint delamaination, I notice after flying today that my blades have  a strip of tape about 1/16" wide along the paint line and covering a little part of the leading edge material.  I would guess that it takes a lot of heat to get the tape to stick.  The tape keeps the paint line from being blasted by rain, gravel and grit that peels the paint.  So far it has protected my blades.

[Jan Charles Potter]

On 3/14/2016 at 3:55 PM, Bob said:

I did file a claim this morning and got a quick response to process a warranty repair to repaint the blades. 

KS-I appreciate the information on your experience!  Any pics of your prop when it was done?  When I ordered my prop, I was told to pick the spinner color, blade color and tip color from black, red, white, blue, yellow and a few more.  I just picked their white blades with blue tips.  Don't think anything with the paint was custom, but different colors may have different adhesions.  When I talked to MT this morning, I asked about not painting the stainless and was told that it would just move the edge farther back and erode in a different spot.

If I am restricted to VMC just to not damage a 13K prop, that would be pretty messed up!

A guy in my hangar is just finishing an RV and I noticed that it has a Catto Prop on it.  Looks like the stainless is over the paint, or at least not painted on, like the pic below.  Is this how yours looks?

 

I would not want to make any disparaging remarks about MT but after visiting their shop in Deland and seeing how the MT props are made and overhauled I no longer want an MT propeller.  Yes, an I have had a really bad experience with Hartzell props.  One of our pilots flying PA-36-375 using an IO-720 Lycoming engine and had a medium time three bladed Hartzell come apart at the hub because they designed a zert fitting too close to the edge of the hub. When the  the blades seprated the hub and  tore the engine almost out of the plane and cause weight and balance problems and no control of the plane. At that point the pilot was just along for the ride going straight down though high trees.  Luckily the pilot survived with some injuries and the airplane was completely destroyed. The NTSB definitely proved it was Hartzell's poor engineering that caused this accident.  The bad thing for me and our company was Hartzell only paid us ten cent on the dollar for our loss. Since then I think Hartzell has been sold twice and yes I am still flying airplanes with Hartzell propellers on them.

[KSMooniac]

How many AD's against MT exist? How about Hartzell? I think Hartzell gets a new AD published every time they want to increase sales...repetitive inspections pushed out, along with a slight discount on a new prop.

Aside from my early paint issue, I've been happy with my MT. I think the design is optimal for a CS prop (material-wise) although I wish there was a 2 blade option for my J to reduce weight and cost further. My 3 blade is still much lighter and smoother than my 2 blade McCauley, though

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