Which Mooney

[ryoder]

I would love to know specifics are.  Where are you flying and how often?  Does your business terminate at an airport?  If I were traveling to airports to inspect fuel pumps or something then I think an airplane would be great if I also lived in an airport community.  If I had to occasionally fly to various metropolitan areas to work with others in a corporate situation I don't see GA working. 

[Bob_Belville]

9 minutes ago, ryoder said:

I would love to know specifics are.  Where are you flying and how often?  Does your business terminate at an airport?  If I were traveling to airports to inspect fuel pumps or something then I think an airplane would be great if I also lived in an airport community.  If I had to occasionally fly to various metropolitan areas to work with others in a corporate situation I don't see GA working. 

Wow, what do you use your Mooney for?

I had a M20E when I managed and eventually owned a small manufacturing company in Western NC. I flew 250 hours per year for 11 years; 90% of that was for business. I met with my sales reps anywhere in the East and made calls on customers. I visited vendors and served on the board of our national trade association based in Chicago. I took employees to trade shows or job sites. A lot of my business was in So FL. I could be at West Palm of Tamiami in about 4 hours. On my schedule. Or I could be in Philadelphia or Chicago in 3. That beat going commercial significantly. (I had to leave my office at least 2 hours before departure time in Charlotte not counting the time to fly to O'Hare. With the Mooney I was in the air 20 minutes after leaving the office and I could land at Meigs, a short cab ride to the Loop.) 

[glafaille]

Concerning pilot licensing and aircraft selection; When a gray area exists in the FARs, the deciding factor is often insurance. You should consult not only an aviation underwriter but also the company's corporate insurance underwriter for guidence concerning both pilot and aircraft requirements for what you intend to do.  Hold nothing back, describe what you want to do, and who you will transport, in detail.  Be sure to include how your operation may expand in the future. 

Keep in mind that if something bad were to happen, your company will have to prove to a bunch of lawyers, a judge and jury that they were not negligent in purchasing/leasing, selecting and maintaining a 50 year old airplane to transport employees and paying or using a pilot with your certifications to do so.

Be very careful, ask lots of questions, cover all your bases and don't forget to consider the tax implications.  Remember that the company will have to account for this expense in some way.  This is one of those issues that seems simple but rarely is.

Edited December 29, 2015 by glafaille

[ryoder]

45 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Wow, what do you use your Mooney for?

I had a M20E when I managed and eventually owned a small manufacturing company in Western NC. I flew 250 hours per year for 11 years; 90% of that was for business. I met with my sales reps anywhere in the East and made calls on customers. I visited vendors and served on the board of our national trade association based in Chicago. I took employees to trade shows or job sites. A lot of my business was in So FL. I could be at West Palm of Tamiami in about 4 hours. On my schedule. Or I could be in Philadelphia or Chicago in 3. That beat going commercial significantly. (I had to leave my office at least 2 hours before departure time in Charlotte not counting the time to fly to O'Hare. With the Mooney I was in the air 20 minutes after leaving the office and I could land at Meigs, a short cab ride to the Loop.) 

My company is one of the largest in the world and won't reimburse for personal air travel.  We have a specific travel company we work with and must use them for all travel.  I fly to San Fran and New Hampshire sometimes.  Even that has been limited though due to cost pressures.

[flight2000]

9 minutes ago, ryoder said:

My company is one of the largest in the world and won't reimburse for personal air travel.  We have a specific travel company we work with and must use them for all travel.  I fly to San Fran and New Hampshire sometimes.  Even that has been limited though due to cost pressures.

I'm lucky in that the Department of Defense will reimburse for travel costs if you choose to go GA.  It is up to the immediate commander whether or not they will accept that risk, but the financial regulations allow it.  The formula is really screwy and you need a degree in rocket science to understand it, but it can be done.  I haven't had a chance to use my Mooney for that purpose yet, but I know of one close friend that flew all over the place in his Cirrus that way.  Was more cost effective and he was able to get to the TDY location and home again a whole lot faster. 

Brian

[flight2000]

1 hour ago, ryoder said:

If I had to occasionally fly to various metropolitan areas to work with others in a corporate situation I don't see GA working. 

I'm curious as to why?  Most corporate flight departments exist because it's faster and more convenient than the airlines.  Hang your suit in the baggage area of the Mooney and change in the FBO when you arrive, jump in the rental car and head off to your meeting.  Shoot, most 1960/70's aircraft marketing propaganda showed people traveling in suits and ties....

My guess is you can save at least 4-5 hours going this route versus arriving 1-2 hours early at the airport, connecting at another airport, etc, etc, etc.  If your traveling across the country, then that would be a different story, but anything within a 600 mile radius and we can beat the airlines (unless you happen to live/fly out of a hub like CHI, ATL, NYC...).

When I was based at Fort Leavenworth, KS I could fly from Sherman Army Airfield and get to my parents home just outside Cleveland, OH in about 6.5 hours including a stop.  Airlines were running 9 hours door to door due to the connections in Chicago.

Brian 

[gsengle]

I worked as a consultant for many years. I did manage to make NYC to Cincy work GA and once or twice as far as Chicago. But the kind of work I did took me to Europe, Asia, and US cities like LA/SF/Seattle/Austin. These are all jet distances...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[N601RX]

My company policy allows the use of "Personal Vehicles" and will reimburse at $.56 per mile.  A common destination commercial flight including connections, drive to airport and claiming bags is usually around 7 hrs. The same flight in the Mooney is 2:20 plus a short drive to airport.  It means that instead of getting up at and leaving at 4am going to airport I can leave at 9am and still get there at the same time as coworkers.  It also means that I can leave after work on Thursday afternoon and fly back home while the coworkers spend Thursday night in hotel and most of the day Friday getting back home.  It also allows leaving a little earlier or staying a few hrs extra if needed.  

 

[Bob_Belville]

I have 500,000 FF miles and growing with Delta and American. I'd rather shoot an NDB approach with a 20 mph cross wind, at night, in the rain than have to fly commercial. 

[glafaille]

+1 Bob!

My job requires frequent airline travel and it is awful!  I refuse to suject myself to the unknown dangers of the machine of the year the TSA uses.   Instead I choose to submit to a pat down like a common criminal.  

 Not to mention the lines and removal of shoes, belt, metal objects etc.  I hate the entire experience and my wife dislikes it even more.  Plus I have to drive two hours to DFW for the privelage. 

[gsxrpilot]

I fly the airlines somewhere nearly every week.  I've logged over 120,000 on United and another 80,000 or so on Southwest this year. I'm not proud of it, but the job pays well and allows me a fair amount of flexibility. I work from home and set my own schedule.

I've found that if I work within the system instead of fighting it, it runs pretty smooth. I went through the process and personal expense to get a Global Known Traveler number which gets me TSA Pre Check everywhere domestic and allows me to skip Immigration returning from international flights. I don't remove shoes, jacket, laptop, cosmetics, or anything. Just drop bags on the belt and walk through. I rarely spend 10 minutes going through TSA security anywhere in the country. I fly enough miles for my wife to be able to travel anywhere anytime with me on Southwest at no cost. And while we vacation internationally at least three times a year, we haven't paid for a flight in at least ten years. 

Don't get me wrong, I much rather fly the Mooney. But the Mooney wouldn't get me to 60 countries on 6 continents. And because of this work travel, we've traveled the world, always on points, which is as good as traveling as guests of the airline.

PS... we don't pay for hotels either.

[Pictreed]

This is not a corporate situation.  This plane is for me.  I'm paying for it.  I want to fly around for personal reasons...not work.  That should keep the train on track.  

For all those that stayed on topic, thanks.  I knew if I started to answer too many personal questions the can of worms would open.

So keeping my original idea for this post...basically the E and the J are very similar in performance for solo, or with the wife, so since I don't want to make a huge investment the E may be the way to go

[gsxrpilot]

Don't overlook a C on the high end of the marked if you see one.  I fly a C that is damn close to E speed, but with upgraded avionics (STech30/alt, HSI, 530W, 330ES, etc.) that was a lot cheaper than a similarly equipped E and less then half the cost of a J.

[Pictreed]

The E and J are right up the street from me and the next taxiway over from my hangar so I'm saving a lot of money there.  I know the E has been pampered as I found out when I was removing the inspection plates and poked my head or a mirror everywhere I could.  I know Don Maxwell brought it current in 2008 and it has been in a apartment/hangar since and VFR only.

They have both been taken care of and the AI is verifying all the AD's have been performed.  I really hate to change anything on it because it looks as good as a perfect restoration so other than some instrumentation I won't do too much for a while.  (Ya, right).  It's kind of like buying a restored '50 VW Beetle and making it a Baja.

Paul, I'm envious of the AP but it will have to wait for a while.  I've got to go to Lakeway soon (to see some friends), I'll give you a shout, maybe I can drop by and see your C.

[Pictreed]

I did forget to mention that it has the electronic ignition and engine monitor.  

I will probably take it to Fieldtech at Meacham for the 430 upgrade to WAAS.  Has anyone had any experience with them and their Mooney?

[Mcstealth]

10 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Don't overlook a C on the high end of the marked if you see one.  I fly a C that is damn close to E speed, but with upgraded avionics (STech30/alt, HSI, 530W, 330ES, etc.) that was a lot cheaper than a similarly equipped E and less then half the cost of a J.

GSXR (750 is my favorite) beat me to it. I was just about to wax poetic about a modded out C.

 

df

 

 

[Hector]

9 minutes ago, ryoder said: My company is one of the largest in the world and won't reimburse for personal air travel.  We have a specific travel company we work with and must use them for all travel.  I fly to San Fran and New Hampshire sometimes.  Even that has been limited though due to cost pressures.

I'm lucky in that the Department of Defense will reimburse for travel costs if you choose to go GA.  It is up to the immediate commander whether or not they will accept that risk, but the financial regulations allow it.  The formula is really screwy and you need a degree in rocket science to understand it, but it can be done.  I haven't had a chance to use my Mooney for that purpose yet, but I know of one close friend that flew all over the place in his Cirrus that way.  Was more cost effective and he was able to get to the TDY location and home again a whole lot faster. 

Brian

Brian, I work for DoD an use my Mooney for official travel as often as possible. The Joint Travel Regulations (JTR) allow the use of private aircraft and they will reimburse you at the rate of $1.17 per statue mile. They will also cover tie down or overnight fees. I assume you probably use DTS for making travel arrangements and submitting your claims. DTS handles privately owned aircraft easily so it's very simple to do.

[flight2000]

14 minutes ago, Hector said:

Brian, I work for DoD an use my Mooney for official travel as often as possible. The Joint Travel Regulations (JTR) allow the use of private aircraft and they will reimburse you at the rate of $1.17 per statue mile. They will also cover tie down or overnight fees. I assume you probably use DTS for making travel arrangements and submitting your claims. DTS handles privately owned aircraft easily so it's very simple to do.

Good to know, thanks.. Now to find a TDY location that is close enough to do that..

Pictreed, now that we know its going to be your baby, no issues with doing everything with a PP license.  I've seen those apartment hangars and I'm a little jealous of those that can pull it off.

Brian

[Pictreed]

Brian, I agree, they are nice.  I hope I don't wake them up when I start my plane up at 6 am. 

Tim

[carusoam]

Starting properly and taxiing are not very loud...

The 1700 rpm run-up and the 2700rpm T/O run that lets everyone know what you have in mind...

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

13 hours ago, ryoder said:

My company is one of the largest in the world and won't reimburse for personal air travel.  We have a specific travel company we work with and must use them for all travel.  I fly to San Fran and New Hampshire sometimes.  Even that has been limited though due to cost pressures.

so if your employer needed you to go to say Tuskeegee, Al.. from Zeppherhills, you would have to use this travel agency vs. driving or using a POV, or is I just a prohibition on airplanes and not cars. I get that they would shy away from re-imbursement of a plane because of liability without demanding (rightfully so) to be additional insured for brazillions, but it appears to lack economic and efficient substance to have you spend the kind of time to use commercial vehicles and a travel agency in this scenario.

Could you use your plane in this scenario and not ask  to be re-imbursed, and possibly deduct this as an unreimbursed business expense?

[Oldguy]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

so if your employer needed you to go to say Tuskeegee, Al.. from Zeppherhills, you would have to use this travel agency vs. driving or using a POV, or is I just a prohibition on airplanes and not cars. I get that they would shy away from re-imbursement of a plane because of liability without demanding (rightfully so) to be additional insured for brazillions, but it appears to lack economic and efficient substance to have you spend the kind of time to use commercial vehicles and a travel agency in this scenario.

Could you use your plane in this scenario and not ask  to be re-imbursed, and possibly deduct this as an unreimbursed business expense?

I am fortunate to work in a company which supports GA. We have operations in FL, AL and CA here in the states. Based in AL, I go commercial to CA when traveling there but personal plane to FL. Somehow, I always seem to have to be at our Lakeland ops the week of Sun-N-Fun. One of my direct reports also flies a J, and we often make day trips in his or my plane we could not do if we flew commercial.

International operations in Colombia are a different matter, but we have 3 G-IV's. Our schedule is down and back on Monday, down Tuesday and back Thursday and down and back Friday. Without the Gulfstream's, the roughly 3 hour trip would eat up an entire day. And on the Monday trip down and Friday return leg, we stop in West Palm to pick up some of our people who live near there.

Yeah, our owner likes to be able to go where and when he wants and recognizes it is a benefit to the company for us to be able to do so as well.

[M20F]

22 hours ago, carusoam said:

M20F,

Can you expand on that thought?   

Flying to work and carrying another person related to the project is typical PP stuff. No?

Best regards,

-a-

Flight2000 gave a good clarification.  If the company owns the plane and you are flying it for work, that is a commercial part 91 operation.  The OP has since clarified he would own the plane.

If he owns the aircraft (which if the company is going to purchase for him I would recommend getting advice from a tax accountant as that will more than likely be considered taxable income) and flies himself that you can do with a PPL and seek reimbursement as allowed.  If he brings another person with him he cannot claim reimbursement as explained in the Mangiamiele opinion.  You also have to be careful what you transport for these types of flights.  For example if the OP was going to test some equipment and brought his test gear along and took it back with him, no problem.  If he knew the equipment needed some repair and brought some parts with him, that now crosses the line to a commercial operation.

The commercial certificate is very easy to get as is a second class medical.  If you are going to start heavily using a personal airplane for work purposes it is wise to get both and not have to continually ask yourself the question of whether or not your flight today crosses the line to a violation.

[gsxrpilot]

In a former life, I would use my plane and would report mileage as if I drove my car. I could come very close to covering the cost. I figured I wanted the hours anyway, and this just made them a lot cheaper.

[Danb]

3 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

so if your employer needed you to go to say Tuskeegee, Al.. from Zeppherhills, you would have to use this travel agency vs. driving or using a POV, or is I just a prohibition on airplanes and not cars. I get that they would shy away from re-imbursement of a plane because of liability without demanding (rightfully so) to be additional insured for brazillions, but it appears to lack economic and efficient substance to have you spend the kind of time to use commercial vehicles and a travel agency in this scenario.

Could you use your plane in this scenario and not ask  to be re-imbursed, and possibly deduct this as an unreimbursed business expense?

Thats a sticky one Mike, in order to deduct unreimbursed travel it has to be for the benefit of the employer. In this situation a wacko IRS agent would or could argue the travel was for the individuals reasons. The code is written to benefit the gov't unfortunately.