Hank vs Bonal

[pinerunner]

Bonal travels 18.69 miles over the ground during the climb to 7500 feet.

Hank travels 12.36 miles over the ground during the climb to 7500 feet.

My calculations got these numbers too. Hanks gets to 7500 first of course but doesn't make up the difference before Levels off and accelerates to the same speed and ends up a mile behind.

[bonal]

On a 100 mile flight, Immelman wins doing a yellow-arc cruise climb to 3000', if not less, and hauling a$$ all the way there. The key is the short flight distance.

sorry I forgot to mention mountains all around the departure airport your 3000 foot climb will lead you to disaster 

[bonal]

This goes to show you enjoy flying and the flight and forget about how long it takes on a 100 mile trip.

 

Just make sure you have enough fuel and weather that  meets your minimums.

 

 

 

 

And being able to post such a question that is both for fact and fun is just another thing I like about flying. It's all good. Just  got back from a short flight was thinking about this and as soon as I hit my descent point and with smooth air I hit 185mph IAS but as much as I wanted to maintain that speed had to slow it down for the approach

[cliffy]

ELB speed= ears laid back in 727 parlance.

The op question gave me a headache trying to figure it out maybe for me that's why its 3 knobs full fwd for T/O, 2 pulled back for cruise and the 3rd pulled back for landing or red line. 

[Hank]

Yes, in this simplified scenario bonal will be 24.45 seconds ahead of me. But we all know that climb rate decreases with altitude, true airspeed increases with altitude, and I follow the Vy = 100 - ALT, so my indicated is decreasing all the way up.

Not sure I believe 800 fpm at 120 mph. Maybe at sea level. I know I've let airspeed build to 100-105 mph in the 6000-7000 range and seen the VSI sink well below 500 fpm.

Also, vagaries in wind would affect the time for each of us by more than 24 seconds, and since our climb profiles are different, so would our exposure to the wind and its effects.

Good thought experiment, though. I did the math simply using the Pythagorean Theorem and never had to calculate climb angles or perform any trig. Time to climb is Altitude divided by climb speed; forward speed times climb time gives angled distance to altitude; [angled distance]² = [Distance on ground]² + [altitude]², solve for Distance on ground. Draw the triangle, it helps a lot.

Let me know if anyone wants to try this, or has, with two same-model Mooneys. At least we fly similar descent profiles! 

[Little Runaway]

HI, I made a few mistakes myself. I don't even know why I started to answer the initial question other than doing it for the fun. Aaronson was quick and correct he must be 25 years old! 

I wish...

[bonal]

So today I was thinking of this thread as I was flying. Home field is 1380 elevation and with about 35 gallons and my lovely wife I had a lock on 120mph and was climbing at 750 to 800fpm no bull squat the first 5 minutes is out over a pretty big lake so not much help from thermals until we hit the hills and it jumps to 900 to 1000 as it often does with the thermals. Only climbed to 5500 to clear the mountains for a very short flight. As for the original question that kind of stuff is always buzzing in my head.

climb definitely starts dropping off after 5500 

Edited October 26, 2015 by bonal

[cliffy]

I'm sure my next door neighbor who has a PHd in mathematics could understand it all but I'm back at 1+1=2

I'm envious. 

[mpg]

I had lots of fun, confusion and head ache playing with this math problem.

The closest Hank gets to Bonal is at the moment they take off side by side.

Bonal magically stops at the destination 38 min 56.5 secs after take off.

24.5 secs later Hank magically stops at the destination too.

Hank levels off in 7.5 minutes after take off and is 13,271.6 feet behind Bonal.

In the next 1.875 minutes until Bonal reaches altitude Hank closes the gap.

Hank cruises 5,918.02 feet behind Bonal.

 

Sooo,    it took Hank 39 min 21 secs to "catch up" to Bonal...  

And,,,    The distance to the destination does not change the 24.5 second gap,

only the total  trip time.

 

Edited October 26, 2015 by mpg

[carl]

i dont know . but without looking.

bonal lives in california 

and hank is in the east 

we need a fly in in midstate pa 

[bonal]

i dont know . but without looking.

bonal lives in california 

and hank is in the east 

we need a fly in in midstate pa 

too cold for my old bones. Corse this really isn't a challenge as some will note in another thread I already give that Hank gets about 2 knots on me in cruise. The numbers were set to see what might be the difference between the two climb rates as it applies to flight duration.

Edited October 27, 2015 by bonal

[Guitarmaster]

Crap... I was told there would be no math!

[Hank]

Put boney and I on the same wide runway while someone circles 7500' above field elevation about 16 miles away. No math will be required, other than dividing his and my fuel bills for each traveling ~1000 nm to meet up for the test, then as far again going home. I live in the LA that's not in bonal's California (that's Lower Alabama!).

[Marauder]

Why doesn't someone who owns an Acclaim S just come over and beat the pants of Bonal and Hank to end this mathematical debate?

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[Guest]

Why doesn't someone who owns an Acclaim S just come over and beat the pants of Bonal and Hank to end this mathematical debate?

 

 

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Or a really nice Comanche 400!

Clarence

[Andy95W]

Or a really nice Comanche 400!

Clarence

It's on if we both start with 13 gallons of gas!

[bucko]

If they both lose an engine in the first minute or so of the flight (like a former Mooney test pilot/ CEO has done on at least one occasion), I'd rather be flying Hank's profile.

 i.e.:  I'm higher and and closer to the airfield, which gives me more options (like successfully turning back towards the runway).

Arriving at a destination 100 miles away a few seconds faster would not be worth it to me.

 

Bucko

[bonal]

Really enjoyed the posts on this little story question as for a real world situation my 120mph climb is mostly geared toward keepin my CHT under 400 which is not so easy at 100mph. At 120 it stays under 400 no problem. I know what kind of climb I get at that speed now that the weather has cooled next flight I might play around at 100.

[bonal]

On October 25, 2015 at 19:11:15, Hank said:

Yes, in this simplified scenario bonal will be 24.45 seconds ahead of me. But we all know that climb rate decreases with altitude, true airspeed increases with altitude, and I follow the Vy = 100 - ALT, so my indicated is decreasing all the way up.

Not sure I believe 800 fpm at 120 mph. Maybe at sea level. I know I've let airspeed build to 100-105 mph in the 6000-7000 range and seen the VSI sink well below 500 fpm.

Also, vagaries in wind would affect the time for each of us by more than 24 seconds, and since our climb profiles are different, so would our exposure to the wind and its effects.

Good thought experiment, though. I did the math simply using the Pythagorean Theorem and never had to calculate climb angles or perform any trig. Time to climb is Altitude divided by climb speed; forward speed times climb time gives angled distance to altitude; [angled distance]² = [Distance on ground]² + [altitude]², solve for Distance on ground. Draw the triangle, it helps a lot.

Let me know if anyone wants to try this, or has, with two same-model Mooneys. At least we fly similar descent profiles! 

Could not let it go unchallenged OAT 50f at least my claim of climb. Passing 4000 @ 119mph 900fpm passing 6000 @ 115 650fpm