hish747 Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Considering a first aircraft purchase. 1962 M20C 2850TT, 375 SMOH in 1995. Gear up in 1992 repaired. It seems many linkages/rods were also repaired. Prop replaced at the same time. Hangared entire life. Last annual was in 2010. Owner said he's been regularly doing washing, start, taxi, runup and changing the oil. Pictures show that the paint is great and leather interior is very good. Price is $22k. http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Single+Engine+Piston/1963/Mooney/M20C/2086734.html My mission is mostly me flying and hopefully occassional family flight (wife and 7 and 8 year old kids) Seems like it could be a good buy but would like to hear your opinions. Thanks, Hish 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loogie Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 You are going to fly your Fam correct? Airworthy and safe are 2 things that come to mind, you need to make sure both are met. Has he kept a log of the engine and taxi runs? Why no annuals (5 yrs of no flights)? Etc. I would say this is a risky proposition to say the least. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBill Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Not very much to go by. Expect it to cost you over $30k in the first year. Then add another $10K for the avionics you'll need to add to enjoy it. Not airworthy enough now even for a test flight! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 On a deal like this, the devil is in the details. When an owner is not forthcoming with all the details, expect a lot of devil. :-) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
63C Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Very similar to how I acquired my bird. It belonged to my Dad and he just quit flying. It sat without flying (hangered) for over 20 years. He still tended to the old bird like he was going to fly again tomorrow. I finally told him that I was fixing to buy something and it might as well be his bird since I had known it most of my life. No it is not a show plane (paint gets some compliments and so so interior) and no it does not have a glass panel...but it is serving my needs quite well at the moment. Oil analysis are coming back better than some I've seen posted on here. I know my situation is a little different having known the bird and owner...but it did sit for unknown unexplainable reasons for an extended period. Not saying that I will not upgrade to a faster bird some day. At the moment we are having a blast in it (83 year old Dad is loving it as well). Just my 2cts. Larry 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Reality dropping in... My C sat for a couple of years before I bought it. It got an annual as part of the sale. Within it's first 10 hrs, my instructor and I, had stuck an exhaust valve requiring some tense moments. Two kids at home at the time...1 & 4... It is good to be young and have these things in mind... Really beneficial to have lots of engine out training, CFI, and A&P. Get an annual, fly it, expect some weirdness, and additional expenses. One day, you will be at the other end of the spectrum... Hopefully, your age will be >80 when you taxi around. A PPI is best to protect your wallet... Welcome aboard! Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRM Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 The bottom line with a Mooney, that you do not buy from the factory as it rolls off the production line, is history. Do you, or do you not, know the history? If you know this and it is complete and you are satisfied, then proceed. Buy it, have fun, enjoy. If you do not know this, have someone who knows Mooneys inside and out (Maxwell, Dugosh, LASAR, etc.) go over the plane and tell you what they think about your owning it. Only you can decide if it is worth it or not, the inspector will help you decide that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumbline Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 If you can live with the damage history and are satisfied that the repairs are competent, I'd negotiate with the seller to get a thorough pre-buy combined with an annual. You'll find plenty of good advice in these forums on items to look for such as corrosion and the like. It could be a good opportunity if the plane checks out as a solid airframe and engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 You may not need it, but can you afford an engine overhaul within the first 2 years of ownership? That's probably the worst case scenario. If the airframe checks out with no corrosion (by somebody who really knows where to look), $22k could be a good deal. You may drop $5-10k on your first annual (by a competent Mooney Sevice Center), but you'll have a really good airplane afterwards. Best idea is to get the Mooney Service Center (MSC) to do the pre-purchase inspection, and if you decide to buy, roll it into an annual inspection. Of course, getting the airplane to the MSC could be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Avalle Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I bought my M20C more than 14 years ago... At that time it was not cheap but I got all the logbooks and I thought I knew the full history of the bird. To my surprise about two years ago somebody mentioned that it had stuck a dear several years ago... would I buy her again. Definitely. Since I got her I invested a lot of money in the plane. Engine overhaul among other things. How I look at it: logbooks are important, but more than anything a good PPI and the impression you get when you see the plane and you fly it. Think that you will transport your familiy in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 $22K for a well preserved C model with good P&I? I'm trying to figure out what unique risks apply to this airplane that cannot be mitigated? Pull the interior panels and look at the cage. Pull a jug and look at the cam. Make sure it is free of critters and nests. Your risk is the price of the prebuy. If all checks out, fly the first oil change out of it going day/VFR with no passengers. If the oil analysis checks out, than focus on the future, don't worry about the past. Its either corroded or it's not. If the engine isn't rotten at this point, starting to fly it regularly is only going to be good for it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTaylor Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I agree with Ross (Shadrach). For a first plane if you manage the risk upfront the downside can be minimized. I would have the engine inspected carefully for any sign of rust or corrosion to the cams, valves and cylinders. After that consider a ferry permit to Maxwell for the prebuy and annual in one. Make the deal such that if it can't pass the prebuy you can return it. You are only out the costs and time involved. If you are close this is not to hard to do, across county it is much more difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 It seems that a good, quality -C that won't have any hiccups are running for about $40k. If you buy anything less than that, expect to pay the difference, plus some, to get to up to par (safety wise). The lack of description and pictures are raising a red flag. You'll find purchase price is the least expensive thing when it comes to owning a plane. Take that $22K then add the mountains of maintenance you'll have in 5 years and then compare that to a $40k -C and its most likely minimum maintenance over 5 years and you'll find you'll be ahead by buying the better aircraft up front. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I would not buy anything older than me. José Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I would not buy anything older than me. José I guess that leaves a lot items for you to buy! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanti Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 For a first aircraft purchase you have the greatest chance of a good experience if you buy a plane that is in annual and has been flown frequently, with bonus points if the plane is well known in the Mooney community or at your home airport. The above-referenced plane may end up being a great plane for somebody, but it would be a mistake to plan around it costing you $22,000 when all is said and done. best Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTex Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 It seems that a good, quality -C that won't have any hiccups are running for about $40k. If you buy anything less than that, expect to pay the difference, plus some, to get to up to par (safety wise). The lack of description and pictures are raising a red flag. You'll find purchase price is the least expensive thing when it comes to owning a plane. Take that $22K then add the mountains of maintenance you'll have in 5 years and then compare that to a $40k -C and its most likely minimum maintenance over 5 years and you'll find you'll be ahead by buying the better aircraft up front. My thoughts exactly. If you want to purchase any model of Mooney that's been maintained correctly and flown regularly with decent avionics you'll spend north of $40K. Realistically, if your purchase budget isn't at least $40K with a $8k reserve for year one deferred maintenance items, you need to look at other makes. As stated earlier, a first time aircraft owner has no business purchasing a project plane and I believe a M20C that's not at least $40K is just that... a project. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hish747 Posted June 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 As stated earlier, a first time aircraft owner has no business purchasing a project plane and I believe a M20C that's not at least $40K is just that... a project. Because in your mind asking price determines condition? I think that's a rediculous way to go into a purchase. This does not appear to be a project. It is a low time bird that has lived inside with recent P&I. The engine is a question that can be answered. as is the airframe. The seller has priced it accordingly. I would much prefer to see any buyer purchase a bird that is priced as though the engine is timed out. This one appears to be priced accordingly. If the engine goes another 1000 hours, that's free time. If it doesn't, the overhaul is built into the sale price. Then he knows what he's got. I think it's less risky than buying a higher time bird with an 800hr engine priced 20K higher. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 I bought mine for 20K and it was well know to the Mooney community, just not this site since 1965. The owner of Willmar Air Service personally remembers flying it and doing the annuals. I did no prebuy but it was annualled by a reputable shop the day before I bought it. It's been a peach since with a couple of failures including tank reseal, bad 2nd vor, bad vacuum pump, ignition switch, compass, kx170c, and a persistent oiled up number 2 plug. I did ok. If you like playing the slots then by all means buy a used airplane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 I've seen a pile of junk for sale at almost $60k, I wouldn't have given half that. Likewise have seen a few steals. The seller might just want to get it gone.... I don't think asking price is necessarily an indication of condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 It is a low time bird that has lived inside with recent P&I. Paint and interior mean almost nothing when it comes to an airplanes condition. We are talking about a single engine airplane. These have safety records worse then motorcycles. All that really matters is a good fuel delivery system and an impeccable engine and prop. Everything else is just fluff. Light corrosion can be fixed as most anything else. You need to ensure the plane flew often and the that the prop will turn while airborne. I cannot believe how many people fly their planes about 4 to 5 hours a year and say that their plane is the best of the best, ,,,after all the paint and interior are like new..............Newsflash !!! it is not the best of the best !!!!! I will take the ugliest plane that flys 10 hours a month over a beauty queen that flys 5 hours a year......... Rant over....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 You should see some tired old 172s out here tied down in Florida. I realize that people think all that matters is the engine but when the airplane is so chalky and rotten looking it's kind of hard to inspect. At least for me. And I assume the owner didn't take care of it at all and let the elements take their toll. Mine sat in a hangar for 13 years never flown but annualled and preserved every five years. I think if it was tied down outside and flown fifty hours per year over that time period it would be in much worse condition, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildhorsesracing Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 As stated earlier, a first time aircraft owner has no business purchasing a project plane and I believe a M20C that's not at least $40K is just that... a project. The older 'C's are valued at far less than $40k - even the ones that aren't a project. It's a buyer's market, planes are losing value faster than a new car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Paint and interior mean almost nothing when it comes to an airplanes condition. We are talking about a single engine airplane. These have safety records worse then motorcycles. All that really matters is a good fuel delivery system and an impeccable engine and prop. Everything else is just fluff. Light corrosion can be fixed as most anything else. You need to ensure the plane flew often and the that the prop will turn while airborne. I cannot believe how many people fly their planes about 4 to 5 hours a year and say that their plane is the best of the best, ,,,after all the paint and interior are like new..............Newsflash !!! it is not the best of the best !!!!! I will take the ugliest plane that flys 10 hours a month over a beauty queen that flys 5 hours a year......... Rant over....... You've ranted over an argument no one made. I do disagree with your above statement that paint and interior have nothing to do with the condition of an airplane. Paint and interior have little bearing on airworthiness. They in fact play a large roll in an aircraft's condition. They also happen to be a rather expensive addition to a 50yr old airplane. Are you suggesting they have no value? No one here said anything about best of the best. What was said is that this plane has good P&I and that the airframe and engine were questions that needed to be answered. They're all a crap shoot until you get to know them and even then they still bite. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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