Marauder Posted May 20, 2015 Report Posted May 20, 2015 6 months after buying my M20C as a total noob, I still haven't broken the neurotic habit of looking at Controller/Trade-a-plane/Barnstormer for C models about once a week. It's striking to me how stagnant the market is for this particular plane. Maybe the good ones get snapped up quickly somewhere other than these sites, but rarely do I see a new one come up, and most of the ones there have been listed for an eternity at prices that look reasonable at first pass. But my well-known MSC prebuy mechanic lamented rarely seeing any good M20Cs come through his shop for prebuy any more, making me think most of these are either junk or quite expensive to get in shape. In addition, traveling and finding help to evaluate most of these planes is a time-consuming and very costly task for a typical buyer like me or the OP. I think what's most important is buying a carefully inspected airframe free of all corrosion, as good an engine as you can get, and a plane that is otherwise an absolute known entity regarding other issues, with appropriate price allowances for the type of problems like the OP mentions. Waiting for the perfect one is futile. Having said that, the more expensive the C model, the better the value, assuming it actually merits the price. Dev -- having seen your plane up close, it is one of the best examples of a well maintained C I have ever seen. Enjoy meeting you. Hopefully we will see you up at Quakertown this weekend. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
Shadrach Posted May 20, 2015 Report Posted May 20, 2015 Shad (you don't mind if I shorten your name) you can shorten mine but then that would make me BO and we all know what that means. I don't think it was your comment and I don't feel like re reading them. I think we can all agree that the used older airplane market is a buyers market at this time for most types. But for someone like me who does not want to incur debt for a hobby my choices are a used up 172 an OK Cherokee 160 or 180 or a Grumman Traveler or Cheetah or a MOONEY C what would you pick. And yes DXB there are nice C's out there (mine for one) they just aren't for sale cause their owners love them. Hi Bo, You can call me Ross! I think the C is an excellent choice. My father bought a 1964 C model brand new from Henry Webber Aircraft. 1 Quote
Hank Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 I've owned my C for 14 months. Just the other day I got a message from the previous owner asking if I was happy with it and if I ever wanted to sell it, to call him first. It's not for sale. After a little math, I've had my C for 96 months next Tuesday, and I feel the same way. The guy I bought it from still feels attached despite the A36 that was the reason he sold her to me. There's just nothing like a good Mooney!! Quote
ryoder Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 I think the Cs are competition for 172 150 and 160 hp models with fixed gear and prop since the prices are about the same. In my case the C cost less than any comparable 172 I had seen in my area in months. Even 150s go for more than I paid. With the money I saved I'll be able to replace stuff that wears out, do some minor upgrades and still have less in the plane than a 172. 1 Quote
Hank Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 I think the Cs are competition for 172 150 and 160 hp models with fixed gear and prop since the prices are about the same. In my case the C cost less than any comparable 172 I had seen in my area in months. Even 150s go for more than I paid. With the money I saved I'll be able to replace stuff that wears out, do some minor upgrades and still have less in the plane than a 172. Our Cs will outrun the Cessners, carry more stuff while doing so, go many more miles between stops, and use less fuel in the process. Gotta love it! 2 Quote
mike_elliott Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 +2 There are more scare posts on this forum than I found consistent with reality... It is reasonable to assume that a plane that has lived near the coast for 40 years will have corrosion somewhere. Likewise, it is reasonable that a plane in a hangar in a cold dry climate its whole life would have little corrosion. When I was looking at planes, coastal locations were deal breakers for me, I wouldn't even look. I ended up finding a good clean one that lived it's whole life in a MN hangar with a long time owner... Do yourself a favor,.. just focus on finding a good clean airframe... all else, such as avionics, motor, appliances, etc are replaceable. hum.... sounds like a scare post to run from a coastal plane. Frankly, some of the nicest Mooneys I have flown (and that's been a few to say the least) have been kept in Florida. While I agree corrosion is a deal breaker, I totally disagree that a plane from San Diego or Florida is necessarily corroded. The chances are higher if the owner is not proactive in its' prevention, I agree. I would take a well kept Florida plane (Bob C. keeps his in his air conditioned hanger) any day over a Mn. plane that sits out, or a plane that sits out in arid Arizona. Let the plane speak for itself, not the old wives tales. 3 Quote
Shadrach Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 Our Cs will outrun the Cessners, carry more stuff while doing so, go many more miles between stops, and use less fuel in the process. Gotta love it! Which begs the question what is up with the market? Why do so many people pay more for a less capable, less attractive (I know subjective, but it is a mooney board), less efficient airplane? It has always been puzzling to me... Quote
MyNameIsNobody Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 BadMoon- I wish I would have had someone "scaring the hell out of me" before I overpaid for my Vintage one-owner Mooney in 2001... There is a lot of costly big and piddly things that break or wear out on our 50 year old airframes. This site has a lot of information to make an experienced purchase that stacks the deck in your favor. Go into your purchase with knowledge and check your emotion. It was the lack of one and abundance of another that cost me a lot of money...BUT I LOVE MY MOONEY and so will you! Be Savvy and you WILL be happy. There are no bad vintage Mooney's...only neglectful owners. Find one that has been loved and has your "wants". Spending a little more, even if it means "waiting for it" will pay off in the long haul. Be happy! Caviot Emptor... Quote
MyNameIsNobody Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 Which begs the question what is up with the market? Why do so many people pay more for a less capable, less attractive (I know subjective, but it is a mooney board), less efficient airplane? It has always been puzzling to me... Everybody knows Mooney's are hard to land, crampt and have leaky tanks (Just kidding) 1 Quote
rbridges Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 Which begs the question what is up with the market? Why do so many people pay more for a less capable, less attractive (I know subjective, but it is a mooney board), less efficient airplane? It has always been puzzling to me... Most people buy something similar to what they got their ppl in--152, 172 or Cherokee. 1 Quote
Marauder Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 Everybody knows Mooney's are hard to land, crampt and have leaky tanks (Just kidding) But you can still get 5 fat people in them! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
larryb Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 It is worth it to spend more on the purchase to get a good plane with good maintenance that is currently in annual and flys regularly. The real cost is NOT THE PURCHASE but the ownership and maintenance. Figure out your 10 year all-in costs and then you'll see how un-important the purchase price really is. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
ryoder Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 I convinced myself only a 172 would do. Not sure why. Accident stats are better, maintenance costs are low, but fuel consumption, performance, and sex appeal are near zero. Then I looked in my garage and saw my beautiful black Corvette and realized since I was 16 I have been operating cramped high performance vehicles like my three Camaros and three Vettes so why not a Mooney. Quote
Badmoonraising Posted May 21, 2015 Author Report Posted May 21, 2015 Well I've decided the 1964 M20C is not for me. I talked to the AME that knows the airplane and he was quite helpful. It's not that its a bad airplane. It's just that 32K is too much for a starting point. I really appreciate all the help here. I am not discouraged regarding a Mooney but I will be very careful with a purchase. The AME warned me that many engineers do not like to work on Mooney's. They are tight to work on and even doing an annual is a daunting process. Good advice. He sounded like he was a fan of the Commanche. I asked about parts and he sort of mumbled saying some parts for the vintage Mooney's are getting difficult to find too. It's not an easy task finding and buying a general aviation airplane. I continue my search.... Will keep you posted..... Badmoonraising Quote
Shadrach Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 I've never had trouble finding a part for a mooney. There is an issue some of the gear parts for the electric gear birds being unobtainable or very expensive. Mooneys are tight to work on, but there is a procedure to get the job done. If a mechanic tries to short cut said procedure, more often then not it be an exercise in frustration. Look over the item list for annual. It's really no big deal. An experienced IA should be able to inspect in under 20hrs. I remove all inspection panels and jack my plane up for inspection. My IA can do the physical inspection in about 4-5 hours. Paper work is another 2hrs. http://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/100_Hour_Annual2007.pdf Quote
rbridges Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 Well I've decided the 1964 M20C is not for me. I talked to the AME that knows the airplane and he was quite helpful. It's not that its a bad airplane. It's just that 32K is too much for a starting point. I really appreciate all the help here. I am not discouraged regarding a Mooney but I will be very careful with a purchase. The AME warned me that many engineers do not like to work on Mooney's. They are tight to work on and even doing an annual is a daunting process. Good advice. He sounded like he was a fan of the Commanche. I asked about parts and he sort of mumbled saying some parts for the vintage Mooney's are getting difficult to find too. It's not an easy task finding and buying a general aviation airplane. I continue my search.... Will keep you posted..... Badmoonraising good call. I think 32K for that plane was a little much given its potential issues. Keep looking. Getting married to the wrong plane can be much worse than wishing you had a plane. Quote
DonMuncy Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 I would be careful listening too much to an individual A&P, about how many people don't want to work on a Mooney, etc. By the same token, be careful about listening too much to a forum full of Mooney people. Talk to some people who work on a lot of Mooneys as well. Use all the information available to make the best choice for yourself. 1 Quote
bonal Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 Based on your description I think you are making a good choice. A lot of mechanics develop attitudes against certain types mostly because they don't have much experience with them same thing happens in the auto industry people get comfortable with what they know. working on my C has been a pleasure (other than cost) and compared to servicing a modern car is a piece of cake. The guys that know Moonies know how to work on them as for parts so far all the parts I have needed have been readily available, expensive but I think that applies to all types of certified aircraft. Be patient (seems like you are) the right plane will find you Quote
mike_elliott Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 Well I've decided the 1964 M20C is not for me. I talked to the AME that knows the airplane and he was quite helpful. It's not that its a bad airplane. It's just that 32K is too much for a starting point. I really appreciate all the help here. I am not discouraged regarding a Mooney but I will be very careful with a purchase. The AME warned me that many engineers do not like to work on Mooney's. They are tight to work on and even doing an annual is a daunting process. Good advice. He sounded like he was a fan of the Commanche. I asked about parts and he sort of mumbled saying some parts for the vintage Mooney's are getting difficult to find too. It's not an easy task finding and buying a general aviation airplane. I continue my search.... Will keep you posted..... Badmoonraising A lot of Mechanics don't like working on Mooney's, and when I hear one of them say this, I respond "Yes, it takes a real good mechanic to work on them, as they require skills not found in the run of the mill A$P since everything is tightly and efficiently cowled" Usually, they become instant Mooney experts.. 1 Quote
mike_elliott Posted May 21, 2015 Report Posted May 21, 2015 Well I've decided the 1964 M20C is not for me. I talked to the AME that knows the airplane and he was quite helpful. It's not that its a bad airplane. It's just that 32K is too much for a starting point. I really appreciate all the help here. I am not discouraged regarding a Mooney but I will be very careful with a purchase. The AME warned me that many engineers do not like to work on Mooney's. They are tight to work on and even doing an annual is a daunting process. Good advice. He sounded like he was a fan of the Commanche. I asked about parts and he sort of mumbled saying some parts for the vintage Mooney's are getting difficult to find too. It's not an easy task finding and buying a general aviation airplane. I continue my search.... Will keep you posted..... Badmoonraising You might consider hiring an advocate to preselect a mooney for you, someone whom really knows them. This can sort out a lot of them prior to spending $ on a prepurchase and helps negate the potential high cost of your learning curve. Quote
Guest Posted May 22, 2015 Report Posted May 22, 2015 Well I've decided the 1964 M20C is not for me. I talked to the AME that knows the airplane and he was quite helpful. It's not that its a bad airplane. It's just that 32K is too much for a starting point. I really appreciate all the help here. I am not discouraged regarding a Mooney but I will be very careful with a purchase. The AME warned me that many engineers do not like to work on Mooney's. They are tight to work on and even doing an annual is a daunting process. Good advice. He sounded like he was a fan of the Commanche. I asked about parts and he sort of mumbled saying some parts for the vintage Mooney's are getting difficult to find too. It's not an easy task finding and buying a general aviation airplane. I continue my search.... Will keep you posted..... Badmoonraising There are in my experience 2 camps of maintainers, those who work on Mooney's because they have to and those who want to work on Mooney's because the have the skills and mindset. If you're going to own a Mooney pick one from the "want to" camp. Both the Mooney and the Comanche are unique, I've owned both. Mooney has wet wings or bladders, both can be expensive. Mooney flight controls are simple and straight forward but require special tools, Mooney gear is simple whether manual or electric. Some Mooney's have corrosion issues, others don't. Comanches all have bladders and they are fairly cheap to replace, they all have electric gear which have have expensive retraction transmissions, but spares are available, they don't generally suffer corrosion issues. Support for both is available, more so from Mooney than from Piper, both have robust after market support. Both have numerous ADs some with fixes some without. Both are generally higher performance airplanes which can be bought quite cheaply, both have owners who neglect them from a maintenance stand point. Many from both camps have been on their bellies, virgins are harder to find nowadays. Someone mentioned Cessna retracts, main gear trunnions prices from Cessna will make your eyes water at north of 8K each, and they crack often. No matter what you choose to buy a very thorough PPI is essential to your financial future. Clarence Quote
carusoam Posted May 22, 2015 Report Posted May 22, 2015 Data point... The one guy (this year) that needed an electric actuator for a Mooney... He posted a photo of the damaged threaded rod. Got an expensive quote for a new one. Found a used replacement within days...(no real issue or expense) Most Mooney pilots are able to not ever damage the electric actuator. So, if you only use one data point, you may be missing out on a good airplane... If the electric gear actuator had you down, go manual gear. This way, if you have a manual actuator problem everyone will understand how unhappy you may be... Not liking working on Mooneys because they are too tight... Really? In the 60s this would be acceptable reasoning. Working on a modern automobiles is a more likely comparison. There is nothing tighter than working on '95 firebird accept any other car built after 1996... Not including Corvettes that have the hood open completely away leaving lots of space to reach around... There is some discussion about having to remove one thing off the engine to access another and that takes time or a special tool... Back to the automotive example... To change the opti-spark (every 50k mi.) ignition off the firebird or Corvette it takes removing the waterpump and cooling fans first... For a good qualified opinion, ask a mechanic that is a Mooney owner..! Best regards, -a- Quote
ryoder Posted May 22, 2015 Report Posted May 22, 2015 I spent eight hours changing the plugs on my 98 Z28. The first five come out easy. Then you come to the realization that you need to remove a bunch of stuff you didn't want to four hours later. That last one required me making a trip or two to the hardware store to get various sizes of ratchets and extensions. My hands and arms were destroyed after that job. Installing the fine wire plugs on the Mooney was awesome. Everything was accessible to me. I have also helped install a VOR indicator, directionally gyro, and radio, all very easy. The door panel was simple too. I think it's generally considered cool to say you don't want to work on Mooneys kind of like the Quadrajet carburetor on my 82 Camaro. The local mechanics called it a quadrajunk but that was because they didn't feel comfortable with it and it's 600 part count. My wife's eclipse required the top intake manifold to be removed to change some plugs. That is nuts. 2 Quote
Bob - S50 Posted May 22, 2015 Report Posted May 22, 2015 Tell me more! I heard the 182RG was quite bad in this regard, but was under the impression a Mooney is much better. Probably referring to the hold back clutch spring. Supposed to be changed every 1000 hours. We were able to find one and have it changed for about $1200 if I remember right. I seem to remember something about Mooney thinking about increasing the number of hours between changes. And it is only a suggestion (SB) not a requirement (AD). Bob Quote
jetdriven Posted May 22, 2015 Report Posted May 22, 2015 I've never had trouble finding a part for a mooney. There is an issue some of the gear parts for the electric gear birds being unobtainable or very expensive. They are tight to work on, but there is a procedure to get the job done. If a mechanic tries to short cut said procedure, more often then not it be an exercise in frustration. Look over the item list for annual. It's really no big deal. An experienced IA should be able to inspect in under 20hrs. I remove all inspection panels and jack my plane up for inspection. My IA can do the physical inspection in about 4-5 hours. Paper work is another 2hrs. http://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/100_Hour_Annual2007.pdf My experience is it takes a day to open up the plane, a day to service everything (oil change, lube and grease everything). 4 hours for the IA to physically inspect everything, and a full day to close the plane up and get it ready to fly. Frequently theres a day lost on something you discovered and must repair. Hours wise? about 30-35 man hours in total for a straight annual with no repairs, in my experience. Quote
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