Made in China Acclaim

[Guest]

Look at it this way Fender and Gibson started manufacturing guitars in out sourced factories and the end result was a big jump in the value of the US made guitars. I can't get my head around all the global economy stuff but I do know that much of the products we enjoy today such as my IPad could not even be made here in the amounts needed to satisfy the market demand let alone the price we are willing to pay. The cessna 162 was made in China and assembled here and they still failed to keep the price point where it needed to be to succeed. Perhaps if the plane is made here and assembled in China it could work. Either way you would not ship a fully assembled airplane any where due to space concerns. I hope it all works out but the BIGGEST problem GA has in the states is cultural and I see no indication that young people will ever hold the fascination for flying as the generations that grew up with aviation. There will always be exceptions but the golden age is long gone. Simulation is the world of tomorrow. Just look at how fast email and texting has degraded peoples ability to simply communicate.

Who really knows how it will turn out. And who would have ever thought a 1968 Shelby would be worth 100 grand. What I do know is a couple years ago Mooney was a shadow of a company with no future at least now we have something we can argue about.

I would say that much of our fascination with flying results from earlier generations who flew in WW2 and afterward. With every follow on generation of military aircraft there have been fewer produced, therefore fewer pilots needed. How many F22's etc are built today? At one time fighters were built in the thousands, requiring thousands of pilots to crew them. The the flying Airforce is becoming a thing of the past.

How excited can a kid get today when his dad, his uncle, or his brother fly drones for the military from a base in the US? Flying is becoming a giant video game with little interest for kids of today.

Clarence

[alex]

That new Acclaim on the picture has the new round air intakes on the front of the cowl, the ones in the background have the previous version. Maybe they are building J's.

[flyboy0681]

I would say that much of our fascination with flying results from earlier generations who flew in WW2 and afterward. With every follow on generation of military aircraft there have been fewer produced, therefore fewer pilots needed. How many F22's etc are built today? At one time fighters were built in the thousands, requiring thousands of pilots to crew them. The the flying Airforce is becoming a thing of the past.

How excited can a kid get today when his dad, his uncle, or his brother fly drones for the military from a base in the US? Flying is becoming a giant video game with little interest for kids of today.

Clarence

 

 

My fascination with planes began when I was around eight. We lived directly under the flight path of Republic Airport on Long Island, and all day long I would watch the planes fly over on their approach. This is where it all started for me and my love of planes carried over into my teens at which time I took the leap. 

[bd32322]

There is a lot of china bashing regarding quality. The reason we have cheap Chinese made stuff is because there is a market of such stuff here. Example - tools - the serious mechanic who relies on his tools day in and day out will get something made by a reputable company at a premium. The weekened / monthly mechanic will make do with a cheap chinese make at one third the price. 

 

The chinese make your beloved iphones and ipads too. No - designed in the USA does not mean somehow it is built correctly. It is still manufactured with very high tolerances in China which is why you get a quality product and hence you pay a premium. 

 

In summary - China will build and give you shit and China will build and give you an iphone. It is all built to a price which is directly dependent on how much profit the company putting its label on the product wants to make. Example: jeans cost 2-4$ a pair - and sold for 20-60$ here!!! - check some documentaries and footage of companies negotiating with chinese companies at the cost of the poor chinese workers working ridiculous hours.

 

It remains to be seen which direction Mooney takes - but I am going to be bet its taking the iphone route. Besides it only makes sense to have manufacturing where the client base is - who will buy new Mooneys ! Yes its depressing unless things change quickly here in the states regarding pilot population growth and flying costs.

[Z W]

I find it odd that some suggest a factory in China today, with today's technology, can't build a Mooney as good as they were built in the USA in the 60's, 70's, and 80's.  Even if the USA is the leader still (which is debatable), I don't think China is going to be 30+ years behind us in quality.

 

Those 30+ year old planes are the planes most of us are flying around.  Apparently they're good enough, and safe enough.  Many of our planes were built before people knew what "the Internet" meant.

 

I say bring on the global marketplace.  I want the best airplane anyone can build, anywhere.  Maybe it will come out of a country where the FAA isn't strangling growth and development in the name of "safety."  Whatever it takes.  Maybe that will wake up our politicians and get some of the red tape removed from our aircraft certification process.

[Tommy]

Can people please stop comparing iphone with a Mooney? Not only they are completely different beast in terms of manufacturing process involved, IPhone has foreign ownership with different set of values (USA vs Chinese business values). Mooney now belongs to Chinese.

I am NOT saying this is a bad thing but so far all the signs pointing to shifting manufacturing to China and a move towards simple plastics trainers. The vintage owners like us will unlikely be supported and the possibility of not being able to buy a Mooney - except the M10 - outside China is real. 

Besides, China DOES NOT make the iPhone. It assembles it with designs from USA and components from all over the world including Taiwan, Japan, and Korea.

[Hank]

Yes, please. Will everyone stop giving any point of view that disagrees with Mr. Doom-and-Gloom. It makes him cranky.

[Tommy]

You know Hank, I would've thought that being an American seeing something like this - shifting manufacturing jobs to China plus deviation from the company's original philosophy (M10) plus all the know-hows / technology / patents gone into foreign hands - would make your blood boiling hotter than an Aussie like me? 

 

Guess it's decades of family business dealings in China that makes me a doom and gloom...

[bonal]

I would say that much of our fascination with flying results from earlier generations who flew in WW2 and afterward. With every follow on generation of military aircraft there have been fewer produced, therefore fewer pilots needed. How many F22's etc are built today? At one time fighters were built in the thousands, requiring thousands of pilots to crew them. The the flying Airforce is becoming a thing of the past.

How excited can a kid get today when his dad, his uncle, or his brother fly drones for the military from a base in the US? Flying is becoming a giant video game with little interest for kids of today.

Clarence

Exactly! How many kids today spend countless hours assembling plastic models of B24 Liberators or turn the prop on a cox 049. It's a different time now and yes the main reason there was such a demand for GA was because tens of thousands of pilots were returning from war with a passion for aviation and there kids were raised on GA without the distraction of simulation. The digital generation has no need for things such as airplanes. As far as the rebirth of Mooney I truly believe they will continue to do primary manufacturing right here with a final assembly done in China. I also believe that the new M10 will be manufactured in my home state at Chino. This opinion is from the ultimate pessimist when it comes to our society.

[chrisk]

I'd be happy to own a Nanchang CJ-6.  I'm pretty confident that the Chinese can build a good airplane. If Mooney decides to build planes in China, it could be good quality, but it is very dependent on Mooney management.  Only time will tell....   That said, I would prefer to see Mooney manufacturing remain in Kerville.

[par]

This discussion is pointless. The U.S. is and has been falling behind in just about every sector for over a decade. It is only a matter of time before much bigger companies also begin moving elsewhere. You can't stop the inevitable when our politicians are busy pitting us against each other and telling us how well the government will take care of us...and the idiot (voting) public believes it. While American kids are failing miserably in math and science when compared to some 3rd world countries, what is even more disturbing is the complete lack of critical thinking ability. Just as it has happened time and time again in human history, money will shift along with power...it is just a matter of time. As easy as it is to hate the chinese or anyone else buying up America, the blame falls on our ignorant voting public.

[scottfromiowa]

This discussion is pointless. The U.S. is and has been falling behind in just about every sector for over a decade. It is only a matter of time before much bigger companies also begin moving elsewhere. You can't stop the inevitable when our politicians are busy pitting us against each other and telling us how well the government will take care of us...and the idiot (voting) public believes it. While American kids are failing miserably in math and science when compared to some 3rd world countries, what is even more disturbing is the complete lack of critical thinking ability. Just as it has happened time and time again in human history, money will shift along with power...it is just a matter of time. As easy as it is to hate the chinese or anyone else buying up America, the blame falls on our ignorant voting public.

No, the blame falls upon leadership. There was a tremendous controversy back in 1788 when Patrick Henry wanted states rights to prevail vs. the Federalists that wanted a Constitution. The difference then vs. now is that both parties and ALL elected officials wanted what was BEST FOR THE COUNTRY. They agreed that the Constitution needed articles allowing THE PEOPLE TO HAVE RIGHTS. What resulted was a document that if followed could result in a Republic that stands the test of time. The founders wanted limited government intervention. They believed in the power of the people AND of limited government.

The last two elections show there is hope. Can a brother get some vision?

I believe that China/Mooney has a vision. I am excited about the new airframes (carbon). I hope they succeed. They will if their government stays out of their way and lets them innovate.

[DaV8or]

I want the best airplane anyone can build, anywhere.  Maybe it will come out of a country where the FAA isn't strangling growth and development in the name of "safety."  Whatever it takes.  Maybe that will wake up our politicians and get some of the red tape removed from our aircraft certification process.

 

I hate to break it to you, but no airplane will be sold in America, certified and turn key, from any country that hasn't gone through the same "safety" stranglehold. The red tape will apply to Chinese planes as well... unless ;you want to buy and fly in China maybe.

 

[par]

That country is gone. You see what we have now. Time to move on ...

 

 

Just to add to this sentiment, I had a very peculiar experience today in the communist stronghold known as kalifornia. I grew up in this state and I want nothing more than to move back one day but its hard to picture that actually happening. So, while visiting my parents in the bay area (think elitist liberal), my dad asked me to drop some items off at what used to be the local landfill. One item was an old mattress and the other two were a couple of old toilets. So, I get over to the newly minted "recycling" center to do just that. I attempted to check their website before I left for the costs involved but like any good CA state government supported operation, it was lacking information. It turns out they charge a flat fee of $50 no matter even if you just have a piece of cardboard to drop off. This "mandatory" fee didn't cover the mattress though...stupid me thinking it would...total cost to drop off all items: $65. So, after going through the first gate I make my way over to the actual dumping spot. The "$15/hr minimum wage" type employee then went on to scrutinize my receipt to the T, to include checking my ID to match it to the receipt for a second time. The whole time I was thinking, these same liberals have no problem with someone voting without having to show ID and yet here I am showing my ID to throw away two fucking toilets. This, folks, is the state of our nation. I think the writing is on the wall at this point...we are being destroyed from within. 

[DaV8or]

You know Hank, I would've thought that being an American seeing something like this - shifting manufacturing jobs to China plus deviation from the company's original philosophy (M10) plus all the know-hows / technology / patents gone into foreign hands - would make your blood boiling hotter than an Aussie like me? 

 

Guess it's decades of family business dealings in China that makes me a doom and gloom...

 

Americans are different now. It's now everyone for themselves. Sure, it's all thump the chest and wave the flag when it comes to foreign policy, or an attack on America, but when it comes to the American worker, it's pretty much- "Screw the lazy bastard!" People don't want anything getting in the way of the everyday low prices, or the amazing bargains that the power of China affords them. This goes from the highest CEO that makes billions off this arrangement to the poorest welfare mom that really needs the deals. There is no "united" in the United States anymore. Our politics illustrate this.

 

Basically, the prevailing attitude is- "I'm doing just fine. If you're not, it's your own damn fault." or alternately, "The government really needs to do something about this!! Tax the rich bastards (but not me of course) and give the money to those poor folks." There is very little value of plain, ordinary labor here. When jobs get outsourced to foreign countries, we blame the workers here for losing their own jobs. When American companies fail and go bankrupt, we blame the workers for the failures by wanting too much. When we have massive trade deficits and foreign companies come over and buy our stuff, we really don't give a damn as long as everything continues on as it was and the shelves still have low, low prices.

 

Basically, we accept our own decay, but blame it on someone else.

[Tommy]

You guys used to be innovators and entrepreneurs! But decades of costly wars, bipartisan conflicts, voter indifference, and the general attitude of "I don't care where I get my iPhone from as long as it is cheap and workers of Kerville can go anywhere for I care as long as I get my parts from someone" led to no meaningful interest and investment in local businesses.

Guess you guys can just keep printing good old Benjamin Franklin...

[Raptor05121]

So I'd love to chime in here. Before I begin, keep in mind I am young, dumb, and inexperienced in the world of aviation. But, I do have a young mind and I believe that is what Mooney International needs to appeal to. I'll be the one in the market for these airplanes when you guys are shuffling along on your walkers.

 

My take on it is this- China keeps Mooney going, thats great. I'd rather have Mooney still "in the biz" versus a long forgotten name. As far as quality- as long as Americans remain invested into the design, we will be safe. I routinely order parts for my 98 F-150 from an online company, whose products are manufactured in China. The difference is they design them in Atlanta, and e-mail the specs to the factory. They've got an extremely high QC versus the generic part I could find on ebay much cheaper. As such, the product is of great quality, the HQ in Atlanta has THE best customer service, and I am a lifelong customer and they know it.

 

I think Mooney will fall into the same regards. Like someone said earlier, China is trying to become something of itself, so it cannot afford to product crappy airplanes. The C162's door issue was, I think, Cessna's fault during the design process.

 

Going back to the age thing, they also have a reputation to uphold. In 20 years, will these Chinese aircraft be subpar, equal to, or superior than their older American counterparts? That will determine business yet farther down the line. Those of you complaining that your old models are going to depreciate, I think, are misguided. As of right now, if I had cash to choose between a Chinese M20TN or a superbly equipped M20M (or the like), I would take the older plane for sure. I like new, who doesnt, but its apples to oranges and most people will go with what they know works. So in essence, I think the used Mooney market is either going to remain where it is at, or even increase in value. People may hate the Chinese aircraft and flock to the older ones.

 

Again, just my uneducated, young $0.02.

[scottfromiowa]

My plane will continue to depreciate because there are no new pilots that seek to buy my plane...NOT because of China. Maybe if enough Chinese pilots emerge we will start shipping our vintage planes to China and sale price will increase. Doubtful as they will build their own.

For those...especially those that don't live in the USA that say we don't innovate. I disagree. We just don't need to manufacture in USA because we can get quality manufacturing from evolving countries. ipad etc...

You union guys are sure bummed out. GOOD. Blame YOUR GREEDY LEADERSHIP.

I 100% agree that government is strangling GA and the USA. "Two toilets? Papers please?!"

Too late for us? Maybe. Voter apathy? Yes. Change possible? Yes. Which way? We shall see...

[scottfromiowa]

I like the idea of not staying cradle to grave with my kind benevolent employer. Have skills will travel. If you are valued for TRUE skills you will be paid comensurate with the quality and quantity of your work. If you don't like it...go somewhere else.

You collective lovers...LOVE to complain. Maybe you need some valued skills? Stop hating the Chinese for wanting what you have and working hard.

[Cris]

The reason Mooney keeps failing , is because they have never made a true four place aircraft , The Chinese are smart enough to realize this and are creating new types as we speak.....Perhaps had Mooney not went under a dozen or so times and been solvent enough to have kept the TBM type cert , they may have survived , OH WELL they did not , Fast forward , if you think that the Chinese cant improve the build quality of an aircraft that is built on the same tooling for the last 50 plus years , you need to wake up and smell the Coffee..... I love Mooneys , I love flying them , would I pay similar money for a new Mooney verses a New Bonanza or Cirrus or C206 or Piper Matrix...... NO FUCKIN WAY .....When you can put 4 adults , and four hours fuel in a new Mooney ,than maybe that will change.......Im sure this post will be very unpopular here , but it is what it is......

Alan That Mooney exists at least for me. It's a Screamin' Eagle with 1122 lbs of useful load which gives me four hours of fuel, (4) 170 lb. adults and 30 lbs of luggage.

[gsxrpilot]

For those...especially those that don't live in the USA that say we don't innovate. I disagree. We just don't need to manufacture in USA because we can get quality manufacturing from evolving countries. ipad etc...

 

Scott and I agree on something?? Amazing :-)  

 

But I agree completely with this sentiment. There are countries where labor is cheap and anything built here, can be built cheaper there.  There are countries where quality construction is unsurpassed, i.e. Swiss watches or German cars, etc. But no where and no one can compare to the good old USA when it comes to supporting crazy ideas. Invention and innovation is really a numbers game.  Given enough crazy ideas, there will be some great ones. I personally think we should quit pining for the "good old days" when American manufacturing was king, and get back to doing what we do best... coming up with the next big idea. We have been a nation of dreamers since the 1600's when our ancestors risked everything on a crazy idea and a new world. And we've been turning those dreams into reality ever since.

[bonal]

You guys used to be innovators and entrepreneurs! But decades of costly wars, bipartisan conflicts, voter indifference, and the general attitude of "I don't care where I get my iPhone from as long as it is cheap and workers of Kerville can go anywhere for I care as long as I get my parts from someone" led to no meaningful interest and investment in local businesses.

Guess you guys can just keep printing good old Benjamin Franklin...

In the past couple of years I have watched 3 Mooney's and one Cessna disassembled and shipped over to the land down under. I suppose that's because most other countries never had a general aviation industry to begin with. As for the current problems with the US as seen from other countries you are welcome to criticize us all you want cause I support free speech for everyone. The future will be a lot different than the past and one big thing is because our current administration has shown we might not be the worlds big protector any more. Well all you guys that have not had to spend much on your own defense because we have been there to take care of you are going to have to think about how to budget all the money you spent on good for everyone things and start thinking about defense. I agree we have problems but instead of criticism perhaps you should say thanks for keeping the bad guys away.

As for why GA is suffering there just isn't the market anymore. Young people don't care about airplanes because they are different than past generations.

[carusoam]

Please.... And thank you.

For a really good political discussion, may I recommend the Timmy thread...?

This thread is trending in the wrong direction.

MS is about supporting our machines and our pilots no matter where they are or where they are from.

Bashing another person's politics, country, or beliefs can be done in so many other web sites. Feel free to take it there.

Best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

I didn't fire the first shot and I agree completely my previous posts were directly related to the discussion about the pros and cons of the future of Mooney

[flyboy0681]

Then make sure businesses gets lots of time consuming visits from OSHA, the EPA, lots of extra rules and last minute rule changes from the IRS, raise the minimum wage ... keep making up and inventing new stuff every other month they have to add to their healthcare coverage ... use the Justice department to prevent companies from moving factories to "right to work" 'states so that they are forced to pay big labor union wages ... and just keep those government regulations and intrusions coming! Then there's dealing with the FAA ...

 

 

American's always blame these acronyms for the move of manufacturing to China. I'm just an old country computer programmer, but my brother is the CFO of a company that has moved part of their manufacturing to China and based upon hours of conversations I've had with him, it's no walk through the park.

 

The only thing China has going for it is its low hourly wages. For some reason American's think that there are no regulations in China and companies are free to do whatever they want. Would it surprise you to know there is the equivalent of OSHA and that violations can not only result in hefty fines but jail time for an officer of the company? And in China you can "own" the land that your facility sits on and lose it because the government wants to reuse it for something else. While this happens in the US through eminent domain, at least here there is due process that has to be followed and sometimes it goes all the way to the Supreme Court.

 

Many here talk about the corruption of our government officials. According to my brother, you don't know what corruption is until you have done business in China, and he likens it to unions here. The corruption there is so massive and pervasive that it reaches down to the local police departments. No business is conducted without lining the pockets of dozens of local workers and officials. You may even recall that some of these corrupt local officials were arrested and eventually executed (boy are they strict).

 

While it's true they don't have the environmental regulations that we do, this past April they just wrote into law their equivalent of the EPA because some of their cities contain the worst air quality that the human race has ever known. And the groundwater in some of their urban areas makes Love Canal look like an Evian bottling facility.

 

American's take our intellectual property and copyright laws very seriously, so how would you like to do business in a country that has none? Say you wrote a nice software system that in the the US has sold well but is distributed in China freely and you don't get one red cent for? Not a software developer? The same goes for writing a book or publishing an article. My brother's company has patents here and they are very concerned that their formulation will be stolen over there.

 

You may also be under the assumption that there aren't any taxes that a company has to pay on behalf of the employee, in which case you would be dreadfully wrong. Employers have to contribute toward what's called "the five insurances". Depending on location, employers have to contribute 18% towards a pension fund (their equivalent of SS. Here employers contribute 7%), 9% towards a health insurance fund, 0.4% towards their equivalent of workers comp, 2% unemployment insurance and 0.5% for a maternity fund, which is unemployment for women who are out on maternity leave. All of this comes on top of a 25% corporate tax.

 

It may sound like I'm defending the land of commies - which I'm not - all I'm trying to do is get across that it's no panacea and in many ways doing business in the US is a helluva lot easier - and safer

 

According to my brother, if it weren't for the attraction of low wages and low wages only, (which are starting to rise quite rapidly), his company would not be doing business in China in any way, shape or form.