Insurance

[Parker_Woodruff]

My agent seems to be changing carriers every year or so now, I have about 375k hull and Starr went up a few hungry, my agent notified the new carriers I just completed the money PPP and go somewhere every year or two for recurrent training, the new carrier came in about $750 cheaper, seems like some kind of game..my buddy with brand B had a substantial increase? Who knows. Kind of a racket

 

Aviation insurance rates are at historical lows.  It's got to turn up at some point.

[yvesg]

Starr is an excellent company and their policy is very broad.  I would highly recommend insuring with them.

 

 

This is not an accurate sentiment.  Very few markets of light piston Pleasure & Business use aircraft actually block the N-numbers.  This only should occur 100% of the time with the present market.

I am the kind of guy who is faithful to my mechanic, my insurance company as long as they behave. 1 1/2 year ago, watching an airshow, one of the event sponsor offered free lunch and tent access for all pilots flying in. It was an insurance broker based in Montreal (March Canada) and one of the VPs was there and I told him that due to their nice treatment I would ask them for a quote whenever I renew my insurance. The aircraft got insured with the same broker for many years... when I bought it, I stayed with the same.

So upon renewal i got a quote from the current broker, asked March Canada and also EAA (since I became member recently). here are the quotes I got for $55K hull value:

Current broker : $1600

EAA: $1400

March : $1100

After i told my current broker about the quotes I got, they tried to match but could not so I switched. $500 difference is significant and my opinion is that if you just renew without checking around, there is no incentive for your broker to make extra efforts to give you a lower quote.

Yves

[Danb]

Yves. I believe that's the truest statement on this blog..

[mikesalman]

I'm on my 2nd year with Starr. I purchased my M20F January 22. 2013. 4 months after getting my PPL, with 125 hours TT 0 Mooney & 0 complex Starr came in at just over $1800 with 60k on the hull. I just renewed this year with Starr at just over $1700 with about 35 hours in my Mooney. Falcon came in about $150 cheaper but I stayed with my broker and Starr since he was local.

[Bob_Belville]

Thanks for all the comments. You guys/gals are the best.

 

I am sticking with QBE @ $1457 ($100,000 hull). (Instrument rating, 3000 PIC, over 2700 retract, 2500 in M20s.) 

 

My (local) agent is throwing in a cap with his name on it. He added: "If it's any consolation Bob, my QBE rate on my C182 went from $908 in 2012 to $1081 in 2013. That's about exactly the same percentage increase that you had. Misery loves company :)"

[fantom]

My (local) agent is throwing in a cap with his name on it.]

You're being well served Bob, but suggest you hold out for a cap with YOUR name on it.

Check your new policy for a 'taxi exclusion'.

Is your plane on the move today?

[Bob_Belville]

You're being well served Bob, but suggest you hold out for a cap with YOUR name on it.

Check your new policy for a 'taxi exclusion'.

Is your plane on the move today?

Tomorrow. But nothing about this whole program has occurred on schedule. My backup is to get a buddy to take me to PA/DE tomorrow where Chris has offered to shuttle me to MA.    

[Mooneymite]

This is not an accurate sentiment.  Very few markets of light piston Pleasure & Business use aircraft actually block the N-numbers.  This only should occur 100% of the time with the present market.

Parker, since I'm not an insurance professional, I'm not privy to what goes on behind the scenes. However, that was certainly my experience early on. I have not shopped under my N# for years, so I don't know what the practice is today.

However, one time when I was shopping under my N#, I was quoted the same rediculously high price by 4 different agents. Rather than pay, I let my coverage lapse for about 45 days (my Mooney was in my hangar for maintenance). I re-shopped without the N# and my first (fresh) quote was more than $500 less!

I don't know what the "inner workings" are, I only know what worked for me.

It would be nice if the process was transparent to the consummer. Maybe someone will explain it.

[Parker_Woodruff]

It would be nice if the process was transparent to the consummer. Maybe someone will explain it.

 

Here ya go:

 

Most pilots on this board are obtaining insurance quotes for their Personal Pleasure and Business aircraft insurance.  This type of policy will cover the policy holder and anyone with an insurable interest in the aircraft for the Pleasure and Business use of the airplane, excluding any operation for which a charge is made.  Some policies (like Starr's) have exceptions to this.  Starr often allows for aircraft rental to named pilots on the policy.  It's not meant so you can start a commercial operation with your aircraft, but it does allow an owner to defray some costs of owning a plane.

 

When shopping for this type of insurance, the consumer has two options:

 

1) Go to an insurance agent who can shop the multitude of aviation insurance companies out there

2) AVEMCO

 

Option 1:

 

Let's say you approach my former employer, Falcon Insurance Agency.  At Falcon, we'd take all relevant information.  Tail number, aircraft base, hull value.  Aircraft owner, pilot names, ages, total times, certs and ratings, recent training, etc.  Any special liability limit requests?

 

In today's market, there are about 12 different companies that would willingly provide a quote for a typical M20 airframe.  If the pilot is a student pilot, we'd only get about two willing companies out of those.  Other than that, Mooneys are looked upon favorably by the insurance markets.

 

About 7-8 markets have internet-based quoting systems that will immediately give a quote if pilot qualifications and aircraft types agree with one another.  If it's a relatively low time pilot or an older pilot, the quote request will get referred to an underwriter for review.  They'll either quote terms or decline to quote.  The agent will then be notified by email when a response is given. These markets typically don't "block" tail numbers, unless they currently insure the airplane.  The idea is that if any particular insurance agent is giving the same info as another agent, the quote should be the same premium.

 

The other markets take the information we give them and an underwriter manually takes "pen and paper" to the quote and sends us back a response.  These markets do typically block tail numbers.  Why?  They don't want to be competing for the same business twice.  They especially don't want to show preferential treatment for one agency over another.

 

So here's what you need to do to ensure you'll receive the most competitive terms:

 

- Give your agent a timely reply when they mail/email you a renewal questionnaire.

- Find out which insurance markets your agent went to for quotes.

- Who quoted and what are the policy differences between the most competitive quotes?

 

MooneyMite: As to your question, the insurance companies often change their underwriting guidelines and rate tables.  I can assure you there's no organized effort to keep rates high for those that are presently insured.  We've seen a massive influx of underwriting companies over the past several years.  This has led to an increased effort to capture a market share (lower rates).  The tide has slowly been turning with some underwriters willing to lose business to write at more sensible rates.  The consumer has been getting a really good deal lately.

 

Option 2:

 

AVEMCO.  Everything is done in-house.  They won't be shopping your quote request with multiple markets.  There are some times that AVEMCO is more competitive on price than anyone else.  Make sure and check to see that their policy meets your liability needs for "Per Person" liability coverage.

[jetdriven]

Our insurance remains stubbornly high, compared to other owners I know. The first year they blamed the 2300$ premium on one partner's 100tt and no complex or instrument rating. The second year it went down 100$ (Raised hull to 90K from 70K)and we had an open claim. The third year it's now 1950$ despite flying the plane 400 hours and closing the claim out. Another friend has a CFI and his Bonanza is 950$. A fellow Mooney owner has twice the hull value and his is less as well.

[Bob_Belville]

Byron, 400 hours is quite a lot of exposure. have you asked if I was a factor?

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[Mooneymite]

Here ya go:

 

Most pilots on this board ...

 

MooneyMite: As to your question, the insurance companies often change their underwriting guidelines and rate tables.  I can assure you there's no organized effort to keep rates high for those that are presently insured.  We've seen a massive influx of underwriting companies over the past several years.  This has led to an increased effort to capture a market share (lower rates).  The tide has slowly been turning with some underwriters willing to lose business to write at more sensible rates.  The consumer has been getting a really good deal lately.

 

 

Thanks for posting that, Parker.  That's how we hope it works.

 

However, it does not explain why for the past 12 years, whoever I use as an agent starts out with a competitive rate (that's why I go with him/her!), but after the second renewal, they are no longer competitive.  When I shop with my N#, I get almost penny for penny quotes of what my agent gave me.  When I shop other agents without my N#, I get new, better quotes!

 

I'm sure there's "something else", I just don't understand.  In the previously cited case, where I grounded my airplane for 45 days, all the quotes were about $1600, but the new quote was $960.  Parker, that's a huge flag that there's something else going on.

 

Thanks again for the explanation.

[Marauder]

Parker -- did I read your statement correctly that quoting privacy is not maintained and that competitive pricing is fully viewable by all that are quoting?

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[LAE]

We were with Starr our 1st year in the mooney. Neither pilot instrument rated. One pilot zero mooney, zero retract, something like 70 total hrs. Other had 150 hrs, 15 mooney, high performance, complex. Neither instrument rated. 125,000 hull, $1 mil liability, 0 deduct, ground and flight coverage. Was like $1500 and some change. No claim, although they did hire an "expert" on our behalf when we had a problem to determine cause and fault. Renewal went up substantially, they quoted us even though they sent a non renewal. Our agent said all his Starr customers had seen a large increase. Claimed they were getting out of small GA market. Forget who we moved to (binder is in the safe at office) but renewal was $1200. Each pilot over 100hrs time in type, one with IR, same coverage.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Our insurance remains stubbornly high, compared to other owners I know. The first year they blamed the 2300$ premium on one partner's 100tt and no complex or instrument rating. The second year it went down 100$ (Raised hull to 90K from 70K)and we had an open claim. The third year it's now 1950$ despite flying the plane 400 hours and closing the claim out. Another friend has a CFI and his Bonanza is 950$. A fellow Mooney owner has twice the hull value and his is less as well.

 

Three named pilots can keep rates higher, too.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Parker -- did I read your statement correctly that quoting privacy is not maintained and that competitive pricing is fully viewable by all that are quoting?

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Agents cannot see the quotes that other agent(s) have received.  The agent would only get a reply from the insurance company that would advise them that the insurance company is "involved" with another agency.

 

Quotes are not viewable from agency to agency.

[Parker_Woodruff]

We were with Starr our 1st year in the mooney. Neither pilot instrument rated. One pilot zero mooney, zero retract, something like 70 total hrs. Other had 150 hrs, 15 mooney, high performance, complex. Neither instrument rated. 125,000 hull, $1 mil liability, 0 deduct, ground and flight coverage. Was like $1500 and some change. No claim, although they did hire an "expert" on our behalf when we had a problem to determine cause and fault. Renewal went up substantially, they quoted us even though they sent a non renewal. Our agent said all his Starr customers had seen a large increase. Claimed they were getting out of small GA market. Forget who we moved to (binder is in the safe at office) but renewal was $1200. Each pilot over 100hrs time in type, one with IR, same coverage.

 

Starr is the underwriting company.  Chubb (Federal Insurance Company) was the "paper".  Starr got new "paper" to underwrite for.  That's why the Notice of Cancellation/Non-renewal went out.  Starr's intent was to keep the business, but this was legal notice that the paper that Starr was underwriting for was leaving the market.

[Marauder]

Agents cannot see the quotes that other agent(s) have received. The agent would only get a reply from the insurance company that would advise them that the insurance company is "involved" with another agency.

Quotes are not viewable from agency to agency.

When I first read your original reply it sounded like they did see and could adjust their pricing. Thanks for clearing that up.

[AndyFromCB]

When I first read your original reply it sounded like they did see and could adjust their pricing. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Adjusting pricing would probably be considered a "rebate", a big nono in the insurance circles.