New buyer…looking for advice.

[par]

Hello,

 

I'm looking to purchase a good 4 seater and after some thinking, the J makes a lot of sense. However, before I take the dive, I have a few questions for those of you who have done this before me. My flying background is all military time, 800hrs worth...in the T-34/T-45/Harrier.

 

Given my background, what should I expect to pay for insurance? Also, being somewhat mechanically inclined, what sort of annual costs can I expect to pay if I can find a mechanical that will let me do some of the work? I understand both these question have some variables but i'm just looking for ballpark figures.

 

I am also looking at a particular J model located in Los Angeles area and I could use a recommendation for a pre check inspection. I would prefer someone who has some experience with Mooney's, if at all possible.

 

And for my final question for now, how much does it cost to add something like a Garmin 430 in an airplane full of steam gauges? I appreciate the help. 

 

Par

 

[tonyk628]

Hey buddy! Look at top gun for a pre buy on that one.

[Bob_Belville]

Par, I have an E model, older than your J, but well equipped so that I carry $100,000 hull insurance which will be similar to an older J.

 

Insurance, hangered, public airport: One pilot, 3000 PIC, 2800 retractable, Instrument rated. costs about $1200/year. (Your flying experience should get you similar rates if you'll be using plane for personal part 91 purposes.)

Annual inspection about the same. Plus repairs and improvements which will vary quite a bit year to year, mostly depending on whether the prior owner fixed or deferred stuff.

Don't ignore hanger cost which will probably exceed insurance and annual cost combined but varies greatly by location. 

 

You'll get different opinions here about the 430 question. Here's mine. If you're going to get full utility IFR in the modern system I'd say you'd want to go up to a W class GPS, preferable a GTN 650 or 750 if you plan to keep the plane several years. OTOH, if you're just looking for a good moving map GPS for VFR, the 696 or 796 for a under $2000 are very capable units with many of the features of the certified stuff. I paid $15,000 plus install for a 750 and $1000 for a nearly new 696 which has no installation.

 

Good luck with your personal flying future, welcome to Mooneyspace.

 

Bob

[bnicolette]

I agree that Top Gun would be a fantastic choice for a pre buy in that area.

 

Welcome to the forum!

[BigTex]

Make sure that you budget 10-15% the cost of the airplane to resolve squawks found after purchase. Virtually everyone has spent that amount on stuff that cropped up.

[chrisk]

For insurance, call AOPA insurance.  They will want the N-Number and some details, but you should get a good idea.  For me, I had right at  200 hours, 10 hours in type, an instrument rating, and a hull value of 100K.  Insurance was $1900.  I hope it goes down this year, now that I have closer to 75 hours in type, but I will not know for several months.

[Dave Marten]

Welcome!

 

100 bucks a month for insurance based on your quals. I'll zap you a PM with the e-mails for two LA-based Mooney guys who have been using an LA area mechanic for years and could easily handle the pre-buy. Top Gun is an excellent shop (they do my annuals), if you and/or the owner don't mind flying the plane about 2hrs North to Stockton.

 

I'd plan on atleast 2K per year for the annual. Some years may be cheaper but you can/will easily double that on other years. Plan a good mx reserve to handle pop-up issues especially if the plane hasn't been kept in top shape.

 

Another valid technique is start a post on the plane and ask for opinions. You'll get a lot. Most folks here are very helpful and may even have first-hand knowledge of the plane.

 

If you can land a Harrier you'll have no trouble with the little Mooney!

 

Good luck!

[MHemperly]

Welcome Par! I just bought my first airplane 4 months ago (M20E) and id say Dave is spot on with the insurance. I was in the middle of doing my complex endorsement and got my insurance for $1,100 for the year. The insurance adjuster worked with me and just asked weeell.. how many hours will you have in type when you take delivery  and my hull value is only at 55k since its an older bird. Also be prepared for taxes as well. 

[Matt Michael]

Welcome Par! I just bought my first airplane 4 months ago (M20E) and id say Dave is spot on with the insurance. I was in the middle of doing my complex endorsement and got my insurance for $1,100 for the year. The insurance adjuster worked with me and just asked weeell.. how many hours will you have in type when you take delivery  and my hull value is only at 55k since its an older bird. Also be prepared for taxes as well. 

$1100 is really good.  Who's your carrier?  I have to bind coverage by noon Wed!

[Bob - S50]

Par,

 

Our group bought a J last year.  We updated our panel.  Install cost as much as the equipment.

 

Being from Seattle area, I don't know anything about who is good and who is not, but I believe that Crownair  at MYF in San Diego is a Mooney service center.

 

Have fun!

 

Bob

[MHemperly]

$1100 is really good.  Who's your carrier?  I have to bind coverage by noon Wed!

Bill White Aviation insurance. They are in corona CA I believe. I was referred there by my friends dad who's used them for years on his traffic watch airplanes.

[rainman]

Sir, there are plenty of good M20 Js out there. Find one that already has all the upgrades you want. The prior owner will eat a the bulk of the cost if the upgrades are already done. It's still a buyers market. Don't get airplane fever, shop around. Thanks for your service.

[Bob - S50]

Par,

 

When you look for your new J, here are a couple things to consider.

 

1.  Rainman is correct.  It will probably be cheaper in the long run to buy a plane that already has the equipment you want.  However, you may have a hard time finding one that has exactly what you want.  There will be some compromise involved.  Whatever you buy, make sure it has a good engine monitor in it either when you buy it or after you modify it.

 

2.  I also agree with Bob_Belville.  While the GSN430w is a capable piece of equipment, it is no longer produced and I don't know how much longer it will be supported.  If you plan on using it for IFR, I'd agree you should look for the GTN650 or 750 (or other manufacturer equivalent).

 

3.  Three items we looked at when we were looking for our J that you might want to consider:

 

  a.  On the '77 model, the fuel selector valve is between the pilot's feet.  On the '78 they moved it to the floor between the seats.  Much easier to reach.

 

  b.  On the '77 model we looked at, the power controls were levers.  On the '78 they were push/pull with verniers for prop and mixture.  We thought that would make it easier for fine adjustments.

 

  c.  Ask about useful load.  We found planes available with useful loads anywhere from 850 to just over 1000 pounds.  If you plan to take more than 2 people in your 4 seat airplane, that can make a difference of an entire person or about 25 gallons of fuel (about 400 miles of range difference for any given passenger/bag load).  When you do that, consider any changes you'll need to make that will require you to add weight or subtract weight.  We did not even consider a plane if the useful load was not at least 950 pounds (ours is 960).

 

Best of luck,

 

Bob

[Alan Fox]

You said 4 seat airplane , Keep in mind that our Mooneys are on the low side as far as useful load , most being in the 8 to 900 lb range ,  If four seats being filled is the rule and not the exception , you might want to do some due diligence and reconsider your mission , or the hardware ,

[Shadrach]

Annuals should run $800 to $1500 for just the inspection. I prep my own bird for inspection so that my IA can show up with a mirror and flashlight. For that I pay a flat fee of $800 + I order my own AD search ($45 IIRC).

Yes ,Mooneys are known for their lack of useful load, it's a favorite topic of C182 and Bonaza drivers. However, it's not always true; you should look at the numbers before you dismiss any bird. My F as an example has 1049lbs useful and I still have an ADF (complete with cloths line) and a generator. I could likely get a useful load well over 1060lbs with little effort. 3 hr legs plus reserves (45gals) equals 779lbs available payload for the cabin...with no CG issues. Far from the the best load hauler out there, but certainly not impractical as a family plane... My bird actually has more useful than a hangar neighbor's C182 which I think burns his ass a bit. Nothing like burning more gas to go shorter distances at slower speeds while carrying less than a lowly Mooney. He does have the edge on STOL though...

The link below is to a great looking bird, but asking price is a bit high. This is my idea of the perfect normally aspirated Mooney save for the 3 bladed prop. It has all of the lightweight and reliable systems of the early birds with aerodynamics of the J model. Best of both worlds IMHO.
No financial interest, but if I were in the market I'd be looking at this one.!

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20F-EXEC-21/1967-MOONEY-M20F-EXEC-21/1300343.htm?dlr=1&pcid=17527

[Mooneymite]

I have done owner assissted annuals under the same IA for more than 10 years and "we" know the airplane pretty well.  Over the years, his participation has decreased and mine increased.  At this point he does what he is legally required to do...I do the rest  In terms of dollars, my annuals are very inexpensive, but time consumming.

 

The previous posts pretty well cover "best advice".  

 

Buy a plane based on what you'll be using it for 90% of the time.  You can always rent a plane for those 10% trips.

Buy the plane you want.  Buy a plane you love.  Do not buy something less and plan on up-grading.  It will cost you money, time, and effort.

Whatever you buy, make sure it ws hangared.  Plan on hangaring your new baby.  "Outdoor airplanes" are more expensive to maintain/preserve.

 

Once you buy your plane, DO NOT keep careful financial records!  You cannot justify the cost in terms of dollars.  That's why you have to buy a plane you love.

 

Most importantly, fly your new plane often.  If you go a month without flying it, it's time to think about selling.

[BigTex]

Annuals should run $800 to $1500 for just the inspection. I prep my own bird for inspection so that my IA can show up with a mirror and flashlight. For that I pay a flat fee of $800 + I order my own AD search ($45 IIRC).

Yes ,Mooneys are known for their lack of useful load, it's a favorite topic of C182 and Bonaza drivers. However, it's not always true; you should look at the numbers before you dismiss any bird. My F as an example has 1049lbs useful and I still have an ADF (complete with cloths line) and a generator. I could likely get a useful load well over 1060lbs with little effort. 3 hr legs plus reserves (45gals) equals 779lbs available payload for the cabin...with no CG issues. Far from the the best load hauler out there, but certainly not impractical as a family plane... My bird actually has more useful than a hangar neighbor's C182 which I think burns his ass a bit. Nothing like burning more gas to shorter distances at slower slower speeds and carry less than a Mooney. He does have the edge on STOL though...

The link below is to a great looking bird, but asking price is a bit high. This is my idea of the perfect normally aspirated Mooney save for the 3 bladed prop. It has all of the lightweight and reliable systems of the early birds with aerodynamics of the J model. Best of both worlds IMHO.

No financial interest, but if I were in the market I'd be looking at this one.!

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20F-EXEC-21/1967-MOONEY-M20F-EXEC-21/1300343.htm?dlr=1&pcid=17527

I believe I saw this plane over at Maxwell's. If it's that plane I believe it is a Mod Works product. This plane had tons of bondo used around the windshield. In fact to remove the windshield, you'd have cut it out.

[Shadrach]

I believe I saw this plane over at Maxwell's. If it's that plane I believe it is a Mod Works product. This plane had tons of bondo used around the windshield. In fact to remove the windshield, you'd have cut it out.

Most planes have filler under paint... some to hide damage, many to create a smooth and consistent surface. Many come with "bondo" from the factory. How do you know the windshield is "bondo'd" in? Was it stripped when you saw it? It had a minor ground incident in '93 but that's it for known damage history... Can you speculate about the "bondo"? It's a well equipped machine with single 20 yr old ground incident. It's a shame as it has been modded in a way that's hard to accomplish today...

[Alan Fox]

Most planes have filler under paint... some to hide damage, many to create a smooth and consistent surface. Many come with "bondo" from the factory. How do you know the windshield is "bondo'd" in? Was it stripped when you saw it? It had a minor ground incident in '93 but that's it for known damage history... Can you speculate about the "bondo"? It's a well equipped machine with single 20 yr old ground incident. It's a shame as it has been modded in a way that's hard to accomplish today...

Most posts on here are unsubstantiated , use you own judgment... 

[par]

Wow...you guys respond quickly and ferociously. I like it!

I am perfectly content with the available load carrying capabilities. I will mostly be using it for 200-300 mile trips up to NY with myself and my wife on board. The extra room is for the family tours.

I also agree with you guys about purchasing an A/C with a GPS already installed...especially after talking to a friend about the costs involved for an aftermarket install. I think it makes more sense to include the additional cost in the initial purchase price than to worry about paying as much as you would for a car out of pocket. With this in mind, i'm leaning away from the J I referred to earlier.

So, here is another question. What is the professional opinion on a J that has many of the options I want already installed but it's an aircraft that has had two gear ups and a main gear collapse on landing. It is priced well considering what the cockpit includes but I don't know how to determine my offer price based on the aircraft history. On that thought, is there a KBB equivalent for airplanes?

Keep the advice coming...I appreciate it all.

[BigTex]

Most planes have filler under paint... some to hide damage, many to create a smooth and consistent surface. Many come with "bondo" from the factory. How do you know the windshield is "bondo'd" in? Was it stripped when you saw it? It had a minor ground incident in '93 but that's it for known damage history... Can you speculate about the "bondo"? It's a well equipped machine with single 20 yr old ground incident. It's a shame as it has been modded in a way that's hard to accomplish today...

Ross - Don't get me wrong, it's a really nice looking plane.  It was just an observation that the plane had extensive fill work done on it.  Do I know that they used the brand Bondo, no.  Apologies if using that brand for filler provided any angst.  For better or worse I use it generically like Xerox or Kleenex.  But there's no doubt that if you see the plane in person, that the fill work goes way beyond what the factory or paint shops typically do. 

 

Again, it's a very nice looking, well equipped, highly modified F and I'm sure it will make someone very happy.

[Bob_Belville]

Wow...you guys respond quickly and ferociously. I like it!

I am perfectly content with the available load carrying capabilities. I will mostly be using it for 200-300 mile trips up to NY with myself and my wife on board. The extra room is for the family tours.

I also agree with you guys about purchasing an A/C with a GPS already installed...especially after talking to a friend about the costs involved for an aftermarket install. I think it makes more sense to include the additional cost in the initial purchase price than to worry about paying as much as you would for a car out of pocket. With this in mind, i'm leaning away from the J I referred to earlier.

So, here is another question. What is the professional opinion on a J that has many of the options I want already installed but it's an aircraft that has had two gear ups and a main gear collapse on landing. It is priced well considering what the cockpit includes but I don't know how to determine my offer price based on the aircraft history. On that thought, is there a KBB equivalent for airplanes?

Keep the advice coming...I appreciate it all.

Par: Mooneyflyer is fine emag that includes links to Jimmy Garrison's Used Mooney Price Worksheets.(scroll down a few pages. It has been more than a year since the worksheets have been updated and I think many folks would say the prices might be a little high for the current weak market but you can certainly get some relative values and see what Jimmy says various options and mods are worth and how much to adjust for airframe TT & engine SOH.

http://themooneyflyer.com/

[chrisk]

 

 

So, here is another question. What is the professional opinion on a J that has many of the options I want already installed but it's an aircraft that has had two gear ups and a main gear collapse on landing. It is priced well considering what the cockpit includes but I don't know how to determine my offer price based on the aircraft history. On that thought, is there a KBB equivalent for airplanes?

Keep the advice coming...I appreciate it all.

 

 

 

Oh you have opened a can of worms.   Some will say you should not buy a plane with a damage history, mostly because you can find one without a damage history if you look.    I on the other hand don't have a problem with a plane having had a gear up landing, provided I know how it has been fixed.   My plane had a gear up.  the owner was up front about it.   It was in logs and the 337 indicates how the airframe was fixed.   It got a new prop, and the engine went to Triad for an overhaul.   And the gear up was several hundred hours ago.  --So, with a damage history, I just think you need to do more work to understand what you are getting.

 

I also think it is important to understand how a Mooney is built.   The front section of the fuselage basically has a steel frame for structure and sheet aluminum to stop the wind.  Most gear up landings damage the belly skins and what ever antenna is attached there.  Since the belly skins aren't structural, it isn't horrible for the airframe.  However, the gear can be damaged if an extension is attempted after landing gear up.  The steel frame is generally not damaged.

 

Now, all gear up landings are not the same.  Sliding down the runway with the gear up is very different than landing in a field (with gear up) and hitting a tree, or sliding off the end of the runway and into a ditch. If the logs show a new belly pan, engine inspection, and new prop, it is probably ok.  On the other hand, if the logs show more than this for the time period, I would be very cautious.  On the gear collapse.  I'd want to understand the circumstances.

 

Anyway, my experience is that 30% or more of the Mooneys have had a gear up.   Many times the owners don't even know it.  I looked at several planes where the owner was convinced the plane had never had a gear up.   In those cases,  the FAA CD showed a 337 for a new belly skin and the prop or engine log starting near that date.  The owners (which I think were honest) were not happy when I informed them.

[Shadrach]

Ross - Don't get me wrong, it's a really nice looking plane.  It was just an observation that the plane had extensive fill work done on it.  Do I know that they used the brand Bondo, no.  Apologies if using that brand for filler provided any angst.  For better or worse I use it generically like Xerox or Kleenex.  But there's no doubt that if you see the plane in person, that the fill work goes way beyond what the factory or paint shops typically do. 

 

Again, it's a very nice looking, well equipped, highly modified F and I'm sure it will make someone very happy.

I was not trying to be contentious; I was just curious about the details of what you saw.. As I said, many planes have some amount of filler at certain areas under the paint, some from the factory. If you could see filler just by giving it a casual look and the windshield looked like it would need to be cut out, I'd like to know more...

[BigTex]

Basically, there wasn't any sign of the window frame or screw heads around the windshield.  It's possible that it was glassed over but there's no way that you could remove that windshield without cutting it out.  IIRC, the leading edges of the wing was filled up to the point that no rivets were visible.  Almost had a fiberglass aircraft look.