Bennett Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/102/2718-full.html?ET=avweb:e2718:315570a:&st=email#221236 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Ahhhhh.....a loaded but reserved statement about new products in the future....I like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 What a beautiful sight. I still say that they should reintroduce a "moderately" priced J model. I just don't know how many people are going to be in the market for a $750k Ovation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 What a beautiful sight. I still say that they should reintroduce a "moderately" priced J model. I just don't know how many people are going to be in the market for a $750k Ovation. How many would be in the market for a $600,000 J? Wouldn't it be awesome if the factory R&D center was working on mods and upgrades for the vintage planes and mid bodies? Somehow, I really doubt it though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 What a beautiful sight. I still say that they should reintroduce a "moderately" priced J model. I just don't know how many people are going to be in the market for a $750k Ovation. I could not agree more. The J would be the absolutely right offering for today's environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 How many would be in the market for a $600,000 J? To me, "moderate" would be about $400k. A bit unrealistic I know (especially since prices for a new Arrow start at $450k), but that's where I feel the sweet spot would be for a product of this type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 They are going to have to go to composite construction and maybe use turbo diesel engine like new 182s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 To me, "moderate" would be about $400k. A bit unrealistic I know (especially since prices for a new Arrow start at $450k), but that's where I feel the sweet spot would be for a product of this type. Maybe for a buyer, but not for a seller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Maybe for a buyer, but not for a seller If the right offering (J) at the right price created a substantial increase in demand it could work. I wonder how many units would need to be sold to realize the economies of scale necessary to offer a J at $400. It would be a bold move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopePilot Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Do we really know Ovations are going to cost 750k? Just curious as I didn't hear that when I watched the video. Also, he mentioned Mooneys as complex trainers (in the China video), so maybe they do have a less expensive model in the pipeline? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 If the right offering (J) at the right price created a substantial increase in demand it could work. I wonder how many units would need to be sold to realize the economies of scale necessary to offer a J at $400. It would be a bold move. In the late 90's the last J's, called Allergro's, were selling (very slowly) for almost $300K each, all in. You do the math....the new owner's have been rather clear on what they plan to build, if not the prices they plan to charge. I think some of the factory tooling for the J may be gone, also. In any event, sadly, it ain't gonna happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 To me, "moderate" would be about $400k. A bit unrealistic I know (especially since prices for a new Arrow start at $450k), but that's where I feel the sweet spot would be for a product of this type. Why not $200,000 if we're dreaming? In terms of cost of manufacturing, what is the difference between making a Acclaim and a 201? Engine, prop, cowl/FWF, maybe avionics and about 10-11" worth of aluminum. That's why I say, IF the Acclaim is to sell for $750,000 and I don't know this to be accurate, then the J would have to sell for about $600,000 maybe more. There is just no way to "strip it down" and save $350,000. I also sincerely believe that GA manufacturers are not gouging us and charging hundreds of thousands of dollars of pure profit. In fact, I suspect the margins are pretty terrible. No getting around it. The M20 is difficult and expensive to produce. You either need a whole new design, or you need dirt cheap labor to produce it. Which do you think the Chinese will pick? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 As I understand it the major costs of building a Mooney are labor time and annual insurance. As Dave says, an M20J will not cost a lot less than an Ovation. If I were buying new, and I saw an ovation costing 650 and an M20J costing 500-550 with stripped down avionics, no tks, and smaller engine, I would say "heck" I'm already in for 550 so I guess I will go for 650. And that is how the M20J line ended - it was M20J vs the Eagle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 From AvWeb.... Mooney is officially back in the aircraft production business thanks to a cash infusion from its new Chinese owners. Mooney International, as it is now called, hopes to begin delivery of new Acclaims and Ovations by the third quarter of 2014. "The last time we restarted the line, it took a year but I want to do it in six months," Bill Eldred, director of engineering, told AVweb in an exclusive interview at the Kerrville, Texas, plant on Jan. 3. The assembly line stopped in 2008 and everything was left in place, including all the partly built aircraft, the certifications and production certificate. The company went from 460 employees to nine and stayed in business by supplying parts for the existing fleet and keeping the plant and its inventory safely mothballed. Those careful preparations paid off last year when Chinese interests represented in the U.S. by Soaring America Corporation bought the company and pledged to resume operations by January of this year. There are currently 46 people working to get the line moving again and Eldred said he expects that to double by year's end as production resumes. As we reported in a video produced in China by AVweb's Tim Cole, the new owners expect China to be a big market for the fast and efficient Mooneys as airspace and other regulations are liberalized to allow for general aviation operations. Back in Kerrville, Eldred said there were plenty of potential American investors through the plant during the lean years but only Soaring America and its Chinese backers were ready to write the checks necessary to bring Mooney back. "I don't care where the money comes from," he said. "These aircraft will be built in America." Mooney will start with a modest production rate of one aircraft per month and expects to be at two a month by the end of the year. From there, demand will dictate the rate. Click here for our video tour of the facilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 If Mooney rolls out a brand new J at under 400K, I'm in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 It would be interesting to think re: cost to put it in perspective I bought a new J model in 1988, when the co. went to regional sales base, I was buying from Weber (where I bought my 1977) and came directly from Kerville bypassing Weber..cost $118,000..fast forward I bought a new Bravo GX in 2005 traded in my 1988 J (mistake) cost $475,000..so 15 years J to M increase in cost 287,000 400%....now 2005-2014 9 yrs. what will the new machine cost ???$999,000...hwere are the buyers, so there goes the economic theory? $ 750,000 may be a bargain I guess the Chinese will buy new Mooney for over $ 1.0M in a couple years, how will that effect our value of the rest of the fleet, my, M is worth well not much based on analytical review. or is it if I send it overseas??? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabremech Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 How about the heck with the Acclaim and Ovation all together and just build the J? Better to build the middle of the line for the masses instead of the top of the line for the few! Just my .02. David 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 How about the heck with the Acclaim and Ovation all together and just build the J? Better to build the middle of the line for the masses instead of the top of the line for the few! Just my .02. David Amen brother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 They are going to have to go to composite construction and maybe use turbo diesel engine like new 182s In 1922, Henry Ford said soon we will be flying behind a new lightweight Diesel engine. The 182 diesel had an engine failure and Cessna is unusually quiet about the diesel 182 since. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 I think Mooney got in trouble last time precisely because they abandoned the J. Wrong move under any circumstance. But they also did this at the wrong time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 I think Mooney got in trouble last time precisely because they abandoned the J. Wrong move under any circumstance. But they also did this at the wrong time! Be careful for what you wish for, if they did bring the J back, it might make the value of your J less 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Be careful for what you wish for, if they did bring the J back, it might make the value of your J less Not Bennett's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Not Bennett's! Heck...that's just what the new J panel would look like, AoA and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urs_Wildermuth Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 I believe a new entry level model is the ONLY way for them to regain the marketplace. Not even if it is sold much, Cirrus shows with it's SR20, which sells much less than the SR22, that it simply is the way to get people shopping with you... Yet, I wonder how a Ovation cell with a smaller engine would behave if they can shave some weight off and optimize on other things. I agree, a successful re-entry has a lot to do with whether they can call upon the "common man" rather than just the financial elite. The M20C I fly was so successful because it was just that, so was the J. I don't say we need any of them back, but something NEW, competitive and attractive for the entry level Mooney owner. Such as possibly a diesel version or at least one with the O390, a good glass cockpit and the payload/range combination which makes it the ideal plane Mooneys have been prior to the top class in current production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 I think Mooney got in trouble last time precisely because they abandoned the J. Wrong move under any circumstance. But they also did this at the wrong time! Seriously, don't try to reinvent history. Mooney did not abandon the J, the market abandoned the J. They offered it as long as they could, but wen sales figures got down to about 19 for the year, it became a liability. Aircraft sales for Mooney was pretty bad, so rather than go bankrupt again, they decided to go simplify the manufacturing and inventory process by going with just one airframe. They went with the more popular larger, faster Mooneys. To try to satisfy the "entry level" Mooney buyer, in 1999 they introduced the M20S Eagle, basically a stripped down and derated M20M. It sold for only about $30,000 more than the exiting M20J MSE. I would say that it was never an issue of abandonment, but rather survival. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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