starting instrument training.. need perf settings.

[midlifeflyer]

The good news (for us) is that runways that have 200' DAs are so long we could land many times over on them. Coming across the DA in a jet in anything but landing speed/configuration on the other hand!? Not much runway to go...

My issue isn't whether I can float halfway down the runway and still have enough room to slow down. I much prefer to land reasonably close to the touchdown zone.

I don't think jets are a good comparison. They land in the touchdown zone and I understand (confirming this with some jet drivers) that their approach speeds are about 10 KTS over their over-the-fence speed, a very small percentage of their velocity. Ours tend to be much higher, closer to 30 KTS with a 30% speed reduction needed to reduce to our over-the-fence speeds. Easy for a dirty 172 with super-effective flaps; less so for an efficient airfoil Mooney.

[Hank]

I fly the approach, at least in from the FAF, at 90 kts [actually, 105 mph], with approach flaps out. Flaps make flying that slow a nicer experience, and gives me less to do to start descending. Gear goes down just before the IAF and is what starts the descent [i drop them 1½ dots above glideslope]. When I  breakout, all I need to do is slow down to my normal speed range and land. The only approaches I've made to minimums are practices with foggles, as I try to not fly in that much weather.

 

Breaking out at 500-600 agl is plenty of time to get slowed down, even if it involves a partial leveling to bleed speed. Gear down, speed where I want it, trim hands off and adjust flaps/throttle as required to reach the touchdown zone. [PLEASE don't start a thread about landing with full flaps all the time . . . ]

[John Pleisse]

Here you go Jamie..... this was what I had when I did my instrument rating, however, I have added tricks and now have more detailed AI info with an Aspen. I would also point you to the book, "Flying The Beech Bonanza" by John Eckelbar. Read his chapter on "flying the numbers".

MOONEY 201 PAC CHART.pdf

[BigTex]

Hank - Does your '70 C have the 100mph speed restriction?

[Hank]

Hank - Does your '70 C have the 100mph speed restriction?

Hey, Tex. My flaps are good to 125 mph, gear to 120 mph. At some point, a secondary spar was either added or beefed up, to attach the flaps. Guess it happened after 65 and before 70. It does make my approaches simple--slow to 105, Approach flaps, trim level. A little before FAF, drop gear and head down. Breakout and adjust as required.

My first approach to a big airport in actual (KBNA), I broke out ~3nm away with significant crab. Aimed the runway out the windshield instead of the storm window, went way left and had to add power to correct back to the right. Then had to make sure I was lined up on the correct runway (there are 3, and I was). Now I know to maintain crab angle at breakout, I just wasn't thinking and had seen nothing but gray for 2 hours that morning.

[BigTex]

Must be nice... With the slow flap speed, I use the following technique. Typically slow to 120mph just prior to the IAF. Then as the glide slope starts moving down, drop the gear to slow down. That gets me close to flap speed of 100mph. I put in 15 degrees of flaps with the objective to being completely configured and trimmed up prior to glide slope intercept. Then at intercept, I pull off about 5" of MP which gives me a nice ~500 rpm stabilized approach.

What's nice about this is for missed approaches, I'm slower allowing an easier time raising my manual gear and being already configured with TO flaps, you don't get the bottom drop out when you raise the flaps.

I'd be interested in hearing what other Manual gear slow flap speed drivers do.

[mulro767]

Good luck with your training!

[Jamie]

Guys, this discussion is why this place is awesome. I like listening to smart people talk about what they do.

[Earl]

I agree with the other posters that the first flying I did when I started my IR involved developing all the power settings for every configuration (climb, cruise, cruise descent, approach decent for precision and non-precision, approach level, etc.) along with what to expect to see on the AH (half dot above or below, etc.).  Develop them for your own airplane and not from others.  PIC has a nice label that I filled in and put on my flight binder although I now have the key ones memorized.  Flying by the numbers in SPIFR is key to managing workload and every plane is different.

[Earl]

Good luck with your training!

image.jpg

Classic!  There is so much great humor in this movie that I have memorized.  

[smccray]

My issue isn't whether I can float halfway down the runway and still have enough room to slow down. I much prefer to land reasonably close to the touchdown zone.

I don't think jets are a good comparison. They land in the touchdown zone and I understand (confirming this with some jet drivers) that their approach speeds are about 10 KTS over their over-the-fence speed, a very small percentage of their velocity. Ours tend to be much higher, closer to 30 KTS with a 30% speed reduction needed to reduce to our over-the-fence speeds. Easy for a dirty 172 with super-effective flaps; less so for an efficient airfoil Mooney.

 

I generally fly the procedure at 120 kias, configure 1 dot high or 1 mile from the FAF then fly the approach at 100 kias.  Configuring is the gear and the intermediate flap setting.  I have a 140 kt gear extension speed so I have a lot of flexibility compared to the earlier models.

 

I find slowing down after breaking out to be very easy, and no I don't have speed breaks.  The 3 degree glideslope is very shallow and it's easy to slow down after breaking out.  I also set my own rule that if the MDA/DH is under 500 ft AGL then I land with intermediate flap settings- I don't reconfigure below 500 AGL.  If I break out above 500 AGL then I'll add full flaps, but I don't change configuration below 500 ft agl.  I found that intermediate flaps weren't a major problem when flying the missed approach, but full flaps added a lot of drag.  I know it's by design, but I wouldn't want to deal with a missed approach in actual with full flaps.  If end up in a situation needing to go somewhere with a short runway and a low ceiling, then I'm canceling.  I won't go if the ceiling is under 1000 ft AGL anyway, so this really isn't a factor.

 

I should add that I only have 300 hrs total and I finished my instrument rating in June, so take my comments with my low level of experience in mind.  I have flown approaches in actual, but they've always been with an instructor on board.

[midlifeflyer]

I generally fly the procedure at 120 kias, configure 1 dot high or 1 mile from the FAF then fly the approach at 100 kias.  Configuring is the gear and the intermediate flap setting.  I have a 140 kt gear extension speed so I have a lot of flexibility compared to the earlier models.

 

I find slowing down after breaking out to be very easy, and no I don't have speed breaks.  The 3 degree glideslope is very shallow and it's easy to slow down after breaking out.  I also set my own rule that if the MDA/DH is under 500 ft AGL then I land with intermediate flap settings- I don't reconfigure below 500 AGL.  If I break out above 500 AGL then I'll add full flaps, but I don't change configuration below 500 ft agl.  I found that intermediate flaps weren't a major problem when flying the missed approach, but full flaps added a lot of drag.  I know it's by design, but I wouldn't want to deal with a missed approach in actual with full flaps.  If end up in a situation needing to go somewhere with a short runway and a low ceiling, then I'm canceling.  I won't go if the ceiling is under 1000 ft AGL anyway, so this really isn't a factor.

 

I should add that I only have 300 hrs total and I finished my instrument rating in June, so take my comments with my low level of experience in mind.  I have flown approaches in actual, but they've always been with an instructor on board.

 

LOL. My SOP is to take all comments pretty much the same way - as suggestions by pilots with various levels of experience, acknowledging that the newest among us my have the best answer.

 

Brief follow-up on my jet inquiry. Most of the responses confirmed what I thought - that typical approach speeds are much closer to Vref than we fly. But for those approaches done at a higher speeds, a small configuration change and slowdown during the descent is common - very similar to the MAPA recommendation.

[MooneyBob]

I've just got my first aircraft ever. It is a beautiful M20J. Didn't fly it yet. I got my PPL in July of this year and fly VFR so far. As I couldn't fly every time I wanted because of weather the IFR looks like the way to go. The very first thing I'd like to do is to get those setting right and memorize them. I know it will be a huge help during my IR training and future flying. I am looking to get these numbers nailed down:

Initial climb after take off

Cruise climb

Cruise level flight

Cruise descent

Approach level

Approach descent ( same speed as the approach level and cruise climb -in case of missed approach)

I use Peter Dogan's IFR book as a guide. I think it makes a lot of sense.

Any advise ?

Thank you.

[MooneyBob]

And I just found that PAC Chart in the post from N4352H. It looks like a very good point to start with.

Thank you.

[BigTex]

I use Peter Dogan's IFR book as a guide. I think it makes a lot of sense.

Any advise ?

Thank you.

That's a great book... Just what's needed, nothing more... Too bad it's out of Print.

[phecksel]

I would have the plane completely stabilized at FAF at IRC 90 kts.  Gear would go down, the plane would settle into perfect glide slope tracking.

 

Friend of mine was struggling with his "F" on ILS approaches.  I flew with him a couple of times and it was awful, nothing I could tell him would sink in, and apparently his instructor wasn't sinking in either.  He over controlled both pitch and roll, often going full needle deflection, and worse not recognizing full deflection.  Several problems there...  One day we were supposed to go flying, and it was real 200-1/2.  I called and said are you ready?  He said, we can't go flying, it's IFR... but we can in my plane   I forget where I had to file as alternate, but it was a long ways away!

 

I hit FAF, dropped the gear, applied pressure to the yoke to avoid the initial bounce, kept my hand completely off the yoke, making minor steering courses with only rudder pressure.  Needle never left the doughnut the entire time.  Another friend was in the back seat and his eyes never left the needles, he thought they were actually broken... to be honest I thought they were too, buy my GPS was programmed to the course, so it provided some reassurance that life was good.

 

He finally got it, and I wish all my flights had been that accurate!

 

Somebody mentioned precision, they are right on.  Gentle movements, precise settings, be willing to break the chain.

[Carl S]

That's a great book... Just what's needed, nothing more... Too bad it's out of Print.

Amazon is your friend.  I just picked up a used 2nd Ed. copy at $4.40 including shipping and there are plenty of used copies of first and second edition available at under $10.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Peter-Dogan/e/B001KCSCMA/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1

 

As for power settings, I have an excel file at home that I'll try to upload later - one more point of reference.

 

Cheers!

Carl

[Hondo]

I flew for years without knowing enough about engine management or how fast to fly approaches.

After finally finding my AP supplement on the internet, I was surprised to find I had been flying approaches 20 knots faster than the AP supplement specified.

Guess that experience is useful if ATC pushes you.

These numbers work for me.

 

Takeoff            2700 WOT

1000 AGL        2600 transition to cruise climb, when MP drops to 26 lean till smooth

Cruise              2400 WOT  LOP (a religious issue)

Descent           2400 and 19

Approach level 2400 and 17 ~120 knots

1-2 NM from FAF  2400 and 15 100-110 knots (about the same as VFR downwind with gear up)

 

 

Gear...................................DOWN .5 from FAF or one dot below GS

        Non precision ......... At FAF  Time, turn, twist, throttle, talk

        MDA level.................20/2400,  .90 knots

        MDA descent...........15/2400,   80 -90 knots

Boost pump......................ON

Prop.................................FORWARD

Flaps................................Half, Full flaps optional with runway in sight

GUMP..............................Check   

Threshold flaps H/F.........70/65

 

Dropping the gear will normally put you on the GS at 80 - 90 knots.

[jlunseth]

My way of flying approaches is to aim more for speed management than a set of numbers.  The aircraft will give you different performance on different days depending on temps.  I cruise at 2450 rpm's usually, and I don't change that during descent or during most of the approach until maybe during the descent from the FAF.  Most of the approach I will fly at about 120 kias.  I have found that something in the mid-24's will normally provide that speed, say 24.5, but it will vary from day to day, during cold days it might be in the 23's and hot days it will be the high side of the 24's.  The main reason for the 120 is that it is below gear speed, so I can drop the gear at the FAF.  At the FAF I use time, gear, power, tower, lights, lights, lights.  I drop the gear and bring the throttle back to something around 17 inches.  I also put in half flaps.  That combination will usually give me 90 kias, and it is the 90 kias during the descent from the FAF that I am shooting for.  I will adjust power, or add flaps, and probaby also put the prop full forward which will generate more drag and help slow the plane.

 

Alot of emphasis is placed on having pilots be prepared for a missed on every approach, and that is not a bad thing, but it becomes a bad thing if the pilot gets fixated on going missed and stops worrying about controlling airspeed in order to make the landing.  In real life, the whole idea is to make the landing, and if you break out at 200 and a half mile, but you are going 100 or 120 when you do it, you are not going to be able to get your speed down enough to land, so the "practice for a missed" way of doing it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy, and in real IMC that is not a good thing. 

 

So I make sure to adjust my power settings and/or flaps during the descent from final to make sure I am right on 90 knots.  That will require adjusting from my target numbers on an given day.  From there it is pretty easy to drop 10 knots before the tarmac and the landing will work out.  Much more than that and you are going to get to fly the approach again.