New Mooney Owner

[jkhirsch]

Hello everyone let me start by complimenting you on the community you have here. I have become very acquainted with your forums since January.  I am going to tell the brief story of my plane (1 pic on flightaware) and I am also facing a few issues that I would like some guidance on. Rather than make several threads I thought it better to contain it all here, so be ready for a long read.

 

I bought a 172P in October of 2010 and last Fall started the process of upgrading to either a Mooney or a Debonair. I bought 64M at the end of March and it was delivered to me in Lexington, KY from Spokane, WA on Apr 23-24th, I was completely thrilled with it.

 

I flew the plane 3.5 hours for my insurance check out and then 2 more hours visiting family. Somewhere in the next hour of flight the compression ring broke in half on the "left seat" cylinder nearest the prop. There is a discrepancy in Mustang Aviation's paperwork as to whether that is the #3 cylinder or #2 someone who knows can probably correct that without having to look it up. Thirty-three days and approximately $2500 later the cylinder was replaced, now 20 hours on the Tach Time later the engine is still burning 1qt of oil an hour. The 33 days took place during June essentially.

 

I am also considering a conversion to an alternator because I have had nothing but trouble with the generator since I got the plane: 

 

On delivery the previous owner instructed to reset the circuit breaker for the generator if it was not showing the appropriate voltage upon run-up. In April of last year last year the previous partnership replaced the generator (1101915) and the voltage regulator (G1500N), they apparently still had issues because in August they replaced the generator and bus bar circuit breakers; in addition they installed a Digital Voltmeter. 

 

Before Mustang began the cylinder work the electrical system appeared to work normally according to the instructions I was given by the previous owner, during last week's flying the resetting the circuit breaker appeared to have no effect and I was able a couple of times to turn off the avionics and reset the master switch which appeared to reset the generator circuit, so to speak.

 

ON Top of ALL of that during my travels last week apparently a lineman at Stephen's at KGSP hooked up a 28 volt GPU when I asked for a 12-volt jump, and now whenever I turn on the master switch everything looks normal. However if I turn on anything, engage starter, avionics, landing light, it kills the entire electrical system. After much fooling around I discovered that if I left the master switch on I could wiggle the ground plug around and the electrical system would "short" back on, only to be shorted out again by the previously mentioned steps. During the wiggling I noticed that when the electric would short back on I would hear a sort of vibration or electrical clicking sound. I have pulled the battery and performed the same steps with the cables jumpered to my car battery. I took the battery to Batteries Plus to use their load tester and with no load the battery had 13 volts and under load dropped to 10 and I now have it on a "battery tender." 

 

There are two components attached directly to the battery that I do not know what are, one is one top in a small plastic enclosure the other is on the far side and is labeled "connector relay." I assume the connector relay is the "power relay" from the electrical diagram found in the Mooney service manual, but I really have no idea.

 

I apologize for such a long narrative, but as much as I fell in love the day I got 64M I am as much in despair now, especially considering my wings are clipped until I can figure out this electrical problem. As much sympathy as my friends and family have for me I desperately need some input from others in the Mooney community.

 

I am also looking for a good and respectable shop, or person who knows Mooneys somewhere near KY.

 

Thank you in advance for the patience it took to read through my whole narrative, I look forward to your feedback.

 

Jeff

 

 

 

[TWinter]

Wow..serious bad luck going on here. I'll let experts chime in on the issues. Welcome and hang in there. When it's all sorted you will be grins ear to ear again.

[jkhirsch]

Update from the airport: I have filled in some of the gaps in my valley of EE ignorance. The two unknown components I have identified as the external power relay and the "master power relay." I have also now decided that the electrical clicking I was hearing was is a stuck plunger in one of these relays which is why the electrical system was shutting down any time I tried to "switch the relay on." The next obvious step is to determine which solenoid the plunger is stuck in, which I am headed out to do now. 

[flyingvee201]

Hello everyone let me start by complimenting you on the community you have here. I have become very acquainted with your forums since January.  I am going to tell the brief story of my plane (1 pic on flightaware) and I am also facing a few issues that I would like some guidance on. Rather than make several threads I thought it better to contain it all here, so be ready for a long read.

 

I bought a 172P in October of 2010 and last Fall started the process of upgrading to either a Mooney or a Debonair. I bought 64M at the end of March and it was delivered to me in Lexington, KY from Spokane, WA on Apr 23-24th, I was completely thrilled with it.

 

I flew the plane 3.5 hours for my insurance check out and then 2 more hours visiting family. Somewhere in the next hour of flight the compression ring broke in half on the "left seat" cylinder nearest the prop. There is a discrepancy in Mustang Aviation's paperwork as to whether that is the #3 cylinder or #2 someone who knows can probably correct that without having to look it up. Thirty-three days and approximately $2500 later the cylinder was replaced, now 20 hours on the Tach Time later the engine is still burning 1qt of oil an hour. The 33 days took place during June essentially.

 

I am also considering a conversion to an alternator because I have had nothing but trouble with the generator since I got the plane: 

 

On delivery the previous owner instructed to reset the circuit breaker for the generator if it was not showing the appropriate voltage upon run-up. In April of last year last year the previous partnership replaced the generator (1101915) and the voltage regulator (G1500N), they apparently still had issues because in August they replaced the generator and bus bar circuit breakers; in addition they installed a Digital Voltmeter. 

 

Before Mustang began the cylinder work the electrical system appeared to work normally according to the instructions I was given by the previous owner, during last week's flying the resetting the circuit breaker appeared to have no effect and I was able a couple of times to turn off the avionics and reset the master switch which appeared to reset the generator circuit, so to speak.

 

ON Top of ALL of that during my travels last week apparently a lineman at Stephen's at KGSP hooked up a 28 volt GPU when I asked for a 12-volt jump, and now whenever I turn on the master switch everything looks normal. However if I turn on anything, engage starter, avionics, landing light, it kills the entire electrical system. After much fooling around I discovered that if I left the master switch on I could wiggle the ground plug around and the electrical system would "short" back on, only to be shorted out again by the previously mentioned steps. During the wiggling I noticed that when the electric would short back on I would hear a sort of vibration or electrical clicking sound. I have pulled the battery and performed the same steps with the cables jumpered to my car battery. I took the battery to Batteries Plus to use their load tester and with no load the battery had 13 volts and under load dropped to 10 and I now have it on a "battery tender." 

 

There are two components attached directly to the battery that I do not know what are, one is one top in a small plastic enclosure the other is on the far side and is labeled "connector relay." I assume the connector relay is the "power relay" from the electrical diagram found in the Mooney service manual, but I really have no idea.

 

I apologize for such a long narrative, but as much as I fell in love the day I got 64M I am as much in despair now, especially considering my wings are clipped until I can figure out this electrical problem. As much sympathy as my friends and family have for me I desperately need some input from others in the Mooney community.

 

I am also looking for a good and respectable shop, or person who knows Mooneys somewhere near KY.

 

Thank you in advance for the patience it took to read through my whole narrative, I look forward to your feedback.

 

Jeff

Jeff, I too am a "new" Mooney owner since the end of March. If you are looking for a good MX, You cant go wrong with John Howe at Bardstown (KBRY). He works on Mooneys and has worked on mine (minor landing gear rigging when I first bought it).

Tell him I sent ya!  He is fair and wont empty your wallet unless there is a true safety concern, regs, or a major AD that hasnt been complied with. This is his number: 502-460-1351. I'm taking mine there for it's annual in August.(plus other goodies we are adding)

 

-Vic Ruiz

1967 M20F - N9648M

 

PS: I'm based at Louisville (KLOU). There is a mechanic at LEA that is familiar with Mooneys too....but....he is expensive. I seriously think you will be happier with John at Bardtown (B.A.S. Bardstown Aviation Services).

[carusoam]

(1) Look for Zeftronics controllers....

(2) refurbished generators are available from Aircraft Spruce...

(3) there are recent threads on contacters -electrical switch - relay

(4) Concorde batteries seem to be most preferred

(5) fewer people are staying in the generator camp, alternator systems are available for your plane.

These are topics that have been covered well here. Find the search button...

Good luck and welcome aboard!

Best regards,

-a-

[jkhirsch]

Update: I determined that the Master Relay was indeed the one that was sticking and I was able unstick it for the time being and get the plane started, of course then the start showed signs of disease.

 

I saw the thread where tony was looking for a replacement for his 6041H231 which is now the H105. I found an unused surplus H231 from a parts place but haven't gotten the price yet, the only price I found for the H105 was ~230 from peerless electronics. Can anyone else chime in on this?

 

Today the project is to get a deep well socket and check the bottom plugs for oil, then reinstall the battery and see if I can start from it because I'm not full convinced that the battery isn't shot. I had a Concorde that was around 7 years old in my 172 when I finally killed it on a 25 degree late night in Orlando, FL of all places, so I'll eventually be making that swap as well.

 

I may also begin to examine the generator problem. A new generator and a zeftronics G1500N generator control unit were installed at the end of April last year so I may at least be able to contact Western Aviation for some guidance on this one. I have basically seen where everyone who has done the conversion it is happy, and I intend to upgrade the avionics in mine as well so it would appear in the future there is no question on the alternator conversion.

[piperpainter]

DO NOT wast money on a new generator or  a rebuilt one! I got the plane power alternator and I LOVE IT!  I get power at even the lowest of idling. Also when I put it in it was like the airplane went on a diet! She lost almost 7lbs from the switch from generator to Alt. Well worth it alone. It also gave me more room up in the front to work with. I hope you figure your other issues out. Oh and I would get a corcord again, I had a gill and it sucked!

[Marauder]

Sorry I missed this thread earlier. I agree with Anthony and Piperpainter on the gnerator versus alternator decision. Do away with the generator and go to an alternator. You should also check to see what the maximum size alternator you can install. If you keep the plane for a bit, you will be happier to have more amp capacity for newer electronics.

 

As for your old consumption. How are the compressions on the cylinders and specifically the one you replaced? If you are going through that much oil, it is being ported overboard, you have a leak or you are burning it. Not likely elves are sneaking into your hangar at nigh and stealing it.

 

Keep us posted. AND post some pictures of your plane.

[Hank]

I last installed a Concord RG sealed battery in the fall of 2009. Whatever came out was in the plane when I bought it in the summer of 2007, and was nearly dead. The increased RPM when turning the key was magical! Can't comment on the generator vs. alternator discussion since my plane was built with an alternator, but everything I've ever heard or read has been very positive on switching to an alternator. Good luck either way!

[Ned Gravel]

DO NOT wast money on a new generator or  a rebuilt one! I got the plane power alternator and I LOVE IT!  I get power at even the lowest of idling. Also when I put it in it was like the airplane went on a diet! She lost almost 7lbs from the switch from generator to Alt. Well worth it alone. It also gave me more room up in the front to work with. I hope you figure your other issues out. Oh and I would get a corcord again, I had a gill and it sucked!

 

+1 on the Plane Power conversion and increased usefulness and increased useful load.

[scottfromiowa]

HAPPY flying with my rebuilt generator/zeftronics/ConcordeXC/ZeeVision HID bird. Absolutely zero issues for ten years of ownership. Installed EI Volt/Amp gauge for piece of mind. The landing light (OEM) was a HUGE power draw that is now a non-issue with the HID light. I use the landing light at all times while flying. Like a 2000+ hour life...

[scottfromiowa]

I am down from 236 to 220...THAT is how to gain useful load. I won't give details on my wife's contribution...(except to say she is helping BIG TIME too) I spit on your seven pounds...pppptuey

[Hank]

Scott, at least Ned's 7 lbs comes with a negative arm . . . I have gained ~20 lbs from my frame to useful load, if only I had cabin space to stow extra gear or baggage. I seem to cube out first unless filling all seats, an infrequent occurrence.

[piperpainter]

Well my 7lbs helps lets me say I have a useful of 1000lbs. Lose 20, 30, 40 and your airplane still weighs the same when you sell it!

[Hank]

True enough. I'll just have to advertise 969 lbs when the time comes. Unless I go whole hog on a panel update.

[DrBill]

Since 2009 I went from 235 to 195 (finally broke 200 2 weeks ago).  That's 40 lbs more of gas I can carry is the way I look at it.

BILL

[jkhirsch]

Update: Went to the airport today, thought I had the right tools...yeah I really don't care for Murphy lately. Either way a 13/16" 6-point too small for the plugs and 7/8" 6-point to small for the plugs a 15/16" 12-point too big. Aside from not having a workshop full of tools at my disposal I got the left side plugs off, one was fouled (not really a concern to me at this point) the one in the front left cylinder (the one that was JUST replaced) was wet with oil but not absolutely drowning either, the back plug also appeared to have a bit. When I went to take the right side plugs off the damn 15/16 just rounded the corners and would not take them off; therefore I could not really make a valid comparison to the other cylinders. 

 

Under normal circumstances should the plugs be "bone-dry" or should there be some amount of residue on them?

 

In the mean time I noticed that I may have a leak from the Induction Valve on the cylinder that they replaced. I noticed a distinct brown-to-black spot on the access panel piece of cowling where it looked like some oil was being burned by the exhaust header and stained the panel. I wiped all of the oil off of the induction pipe and I am flying to KBMG sometime in the next 24-ish hours, since I've discovered how easy that panel is to remove it'll be the first thing I check when I land. 

 

I don't believe that I could be losing a quart of oil an hour through the induction valve without a noticeable leak out the bottom of the cowling or a more noticeable appearance of that much oil being evaporated by the header, but it certainly could create a combo effect.

 

What are thoughts on the amount of oil that could be seemingly "disappearing" through an induction valve gasket leak?

 

P.S. I bicycled 23 miles today which helps with the 160 pounds, soaking wet in winter clothing, that I contribute to the useful load.

[DrBill]

When I bought my Mooney, the compressions were normal but I was using 1 qt / hr of oil.  The EGT told me something was wrong with #3 so I had the mechanic pull that one.  Sure enough, broken oil ring.  A new set of rings on that cylinder ($700 total cost) and my oil consumption is 1 qt / 6-7 hours.  

BILL

I too ride a bike 3 times a week and each trip is only 11 mi.  Since I lost 1/3 of my right lung, I can't go as fast as I used to.

[Hank]

Jeff,

I change my oil every 50 hours, and consumption increases as I go along. I get 12-15 hours before needing the first quart, decreasing to 5-6 or so on the last one. I refill with 7 quarts, just above 6 on the dipstick, and try to not let it reach 5. Any more and it auto-corrects down to 6/6-1/2 pretty quickly (like one flight).

KLEX isn't too far from here. Isn't there a good restaurant near the field? I may need to come eat . . .

P.S.--my A&P here looks after several Mooneys, from my C to a J.

[jkhirsch]

At this point topic should be renamed: "Troubled New Mooney Owner"

 

Update: Flew from KLEX to KBMG Friday without any noticeable issue. From KBMG to a "grass strip" near my grandparents' house, noticed a "roughness" during straight and level flight almost as if the compression ring broke right then as there in one of the cylinders. Check the induction valve that I had previously cleaned off and it is in fact leaking oil. Left the grass strip this morning with right around 6 quarts of oil (pressure normal during run-up and take off) ~30 minutes later I had to stop in KTEL due to ~25lbs of oil pressure and when I let it sit for about 25-30 minutes had less than 2 qts of oil on the dipstick. I added 4 qts and limped to KLEX then immediately called the shop that just finished the piston and rings on the front left cylinder (same cylinder the induction valve is leaking on July 2nd. In sheer surpirse they told me they could get it into the shop tomorrow so it looks like I'll be spending my afternoon over there with them. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it still has something to do with the cylinder that was reworked and not another cylinder with a broken ring.

 

During the flight I also noticed a very strange electrical issue. I have been battling a generator that won't fully charge the battery and this morning I noticed that if I held the PTT switch on the passenger side (which my headset was plugged into) that the generator would crank the digital voltmeter right up to 14. I tried the PTT on the pilots side with no headset connected but it did no have the same affect. I was able to recover my multimeter from my grandfather's house yesterday though, so at least I can start poking around and pretending like I know what I'm doing.

 

Hank: There's not anything located on the field (minus whatever's in the Commercial Terminal), but there is a place called Malone's a couple miles down the road which they want you to think is "famous," but there are plently of good places to eat.

[yvesg]

It is possible your voltage raise is caused by RF making its way to the voltmeter. The headset leads might act as an antenna and something else seems to rectify this to cause that raise. Not sure what kind of filtering your voltmeter has... this is where I would look at first.

Yves

[jkhirsch]

Update: I confirmed yesterday with compression test and pulling the plugs that I will be replacing a second cylinder. This time number 4, when we put the air to it, it held compression then when we wiggled the prop we heard a click and then compression dropped to around 70 and shot straight back up. We brought in a second opinion and did the same thing only with my hand over the oil stem and when those events happened a burst of air shot out the stem. The mechanic also watched as a I warmed the plane up on the ground and when I went full power he noticed intermittent bursts of black smoke. So I'm sure as I get that fixed up one on the other side will go out. The new mechanic and I are going to pull the cylinder either Friday afternoon or Saturday and get it shipped to a guy in Owensboro, KY who is apparently a Lycoming guru. Maybe in a magical world it could be back together by then end of next week.