Do you have an angle of attack indicator (poll)

[bnicolette]

Yes, I totally agree.  If it's windy enough to blow you over another 30 degrees I hope that pilot is carrying more speed than normal.  Fly the conditions brother.   And hopefully nobody is flying at only 90 knots and purposely banks 60 degrees.

 

Phew.  I'm tired of this topic.  On to something else. 

[Marauder]

 

Phew.  I'm tired of this topic.  On to something else. 

 

 

 

How about CamGuard? That poor pony hasn't been beaten in a few weeks.     

[PTK]

Brett, you're right. I must have grabbed the mph numbers by accident. However, for 60 degrees bank stall is listed at 83 knots (for gear down and half flaps). That would require 108kts to maintain 1.3Vso. Being down to 7 knots of margin and pulling back a little much or a gust of wind can be enough to turn that into a spin. I don't think most of us do a 108kts base to final turn in a tight pattern (heck that's almost max flaps speed).

It will not turn into a spin if kept coordinated. As I said earlier, the pilot must have a healthy appreciation for yaw control. The airplane must be free of yaw (unless intentionally being slipped.) It is not the stall that kills in the pattern, it's the resulting spin. The pilot causes these accidents due to very poor flying technique. The airspeed was allowed to diminish and in an extremely uncoordinated condition. This is a totally preventable accident if we just go back to basics.

 

An AOA indicator will not make the pilot fly better. On  the contrary It may mask this dangerously poor technique.

 

As Brett said, even down at 90 KIAS there's plenty of margin up to 60 degrees of bank. When do you really need to bank that much and when do you really need to exceed 30 degrees in the pattern?

[PTK]

How about CamGuard? That poor pony hasn't been beaten in a few weeks.     

It's not dead yet?!

[201er]

An AOA indicator will not make the pilot fly better. On  the contrary It may mask this dangerously poor technique.

If the pilot utilizes information from the AOA to fly the correct angle of attack for every phase in the traffic pattern, I can't picture how there could be poor technique.

[PTK]

I would hope that almost as a matter of muscle memory any pilot who needed to bank very steeply in the pattern would at the same time unload the wing a bit by lowering the nose. This would have the effect of increasing stall safety margins above those quoted in the POH. In other words, an increasing bank angle's negative effect on stall speed can be mitigated by lowering the angle of attack (AoA), can it not?

Which, of course, leads us right back to value of an AoA indicator. ASSuming the pilot was paying attention to it, it would remove both the guesswork from this process and the years required to develop this type of instinct.

Jim

First of all there is no need that I can think of to bank very steeply in the pattern. This is called poor planning. It can be done but has to be done correctly. And correctly means with the pilot fully engaged and in control, not merely following some AOA indicator.

 

Second, it is not adequate to lower the nose hoping to mitigate the increase in stall speed. This is called lacking basic piloting skills. Does the concept of coordinated turn mean anything? When do we start thinking about it? If not while maneuvering in the pattern, when?

 

The stall/spin is a chain of events that are initiated and aggravated by the pilot. The airplane is allowed to enter into a spin precisely because it was forced to skid with the ball way out. It is screaming for some yaw control from the pilot as it enters into a deadly spin! 

 

Thirdly, there shouldn't be any "guesswork" and "years required to develop this type of instinct." This is basic stuff taught in the first 5 or 10 hours of the PP training.

[wishboneash]

Magic words "unload the nose". Keep the turn coordinated. If in doubt, push the nose down. Know your altitude margin. You shouldn't stall on base to final cross-controlled. 

[PTK]

You are quite the expert, Doc. The great irony is that I agree with you that AoA indicators are unnecessary for the type of flying that most of us do with our Mooneys. I also agree with you that there is no reason to bank steeply in the pattern. The context in which I was trained in this area, however, was upset recovery training, during which the pilot might not have commanded the steep bank angle but, instead, is responding to it.

Jim

I'm not the expert Jim. On the contrary, I'm always learning. 

[201er]

Given such an averse attitude toward angle of attack indicators and worse yet the invincible attitude coupled with ignorance of aoa all together, it is not surprising the stalls in the pattern are one of the leading causes of death in the GA community. My biggest shock isn't that people are stalling and bending metal, but that there is such a resistance to try and prevent it. Having a reading that tells you realtime margin above stall is extremely valuable. I'm just shocked how anyone could be denying that and feeling so invincible despite all the accident reports (which include very experienced pilots falling into the same trap). An AOA indicator won't solve the problem. But pilots who have the indicator, know how to use it, and understand AOA... now that is a much safer solution by far.

 

To our dentist friend I have a question. Does this mean you refuse to have an xray machine in your practice? Why bother using an information instrument when you can just as well use your eyes?

[carusoam]

We need to video the operation of the AoA indicator.

Not suggesting do this singlehandedly in the traffic pattern at high angles of bank. But a proper video is worth at least 10,000 wor....

Mike, Let me know if you need a navigator for the flight?

Best regards,

-a-

[201er]

We need to video the operation of the AoA indicator. Mike, Let me know if you need a navigator for the flight?

I do. But my plane is going in for annual tomorrow. So, let's try and do that in July. I know everyone wants to see now, but what can I do? It'll make an excuse to revisit this topic again

 

 

FWIW, Mike, I do understand both AoA and the value that an AoA indicator would bring to my cockpit. I just don't think that I *need* one and I don't want to pay for it. Good for you for buying a Mooney with one already installed. And Monroy tanks, too, I believe. You chose wisely, Sir.

 

Thanks Jim. I can't take too much credit though cause I didn't fully realize the value of these things until I've had the plane for a bit. I love the Monroy tanks but I don't feel a need to run and tell everyone to get them. But being forced to try an AOA by having one has changed my piloting and understanding substantially! Just having had the experience of seeing what my AOA is in different configurations (not reading about it but actually seeing a measurement) has been eye opening. It has also changed the way I fly the last 1/3 of the traffic pattern. It has helped me perfect my short field landings because I don't get scared to fly slower (when lightweight) and it ensures I fly fast enough when heavy.

 

Before I've had an AOA, I would have probably put myself in the "No, but it's on my extended wish list." But now having flown with one for 3 years (and the lifesaving experiences I've had with it), I feel very differently about it. If I were to change to a different Mooney, it would be the first non-airworthiness thing that I would add without a doubt. I'd trade traffic systems, IPAD, and most of those other non-essential gadgets for an AOA instead. I've really come to value it having seen myself get close to a bad situation that I would never have otherwise known about (like that Cessna 172 story I shared in my other topic). These are the reasons I've been making such a big deal about it and trying to put my own experience flying with one on the line so that others could have this undervalued benefit.

[PTK]

"... it is not surprising the stalls in the pattern are one of the leading causes of death in the GA community. My biggest shock isn't that people are stalling and bending metal, but that there is such a resistance to try and prevent it...An AOA indicator won't solve the problem. But pilots who have the indicator, know how to use it, and understand AOA... now that is a much safer solution by far.

To our dentist friend I have a question. Does this mean you refuse to have an xray machine in your practice? Why bother using an information instrument when you can just as well use your eyes?

Mike, when you keep on saying that stalls are one of the leading causes of death in GA, bend metal and the like, I get the impression that you are either misspeaking or you are missing a key concept.

Do you think it's the stall that's the culprit or is it the spin that follows as a result of pilot error?

No gadget is going to teach proper technique. That's my point. An aoa indicator may be nice, doesn't hurt to have but not needed in our planes either. It certainly can't be used as a crutch for poor technique or bad planning.

I would put that money into some lessons reviewing the basics.

[BigTex]

After reading through this thread I almost hate to jump in... But what the hell. Talking to my brother in-law that flys a 737 for a major legacy airline based at DFW and he said the he flys his approaches almost exclusively using the AOA. Not sure if we're talking apple and oranges but if major airlines use them, they must have value. I too am considering having an AOA installed. Not to replace the ASI but to put another tool into my toolbox. Trust me, I need as many tools as the toolbox can hold! Since I fly one of those low-end Mooney's with a carburetor I could really use carb temp gauge to monitor carb icing. Do I need it? No. But it would be nice to have a way to monitor icing and not rely on procedures as I do now. I see the AOA indicator is being a similar instrument. Both would be very welcomed additions to my toolbox.

[carusoam]

Nice perspective Gary!

Best regards,

-a-

[Alan Fox]

After reading through this thread I almost hate to jump in... But what the hell. Talking to my brother in-law that flys a 737 for a major legacy airline based at DFW and he said the he flys his approaches almost exclusively using the AOA. Not sure if we're talking apple and oranges but if major airlines use them, they must have value. I too am considering having an AOA installed. Not to replace the ASI but to put another tool into my toolbox. Trust me, I need as many tools as the toolbox can hold! Since I fly one of those low-end Mooney's with a carburetor I could really use carb temp gauge to monitor carb icing. Do I need it? No. But it would be nice to have a way to monitor icing and not rely on procedures as I do now. I see the AOA indicator is being a similar instrument. Both would be very welcomed additions to my toolbox.

You already have an AOA , its that little metal vane on the leading edge of the wing , that makes a buzzer sound when you move it on preflight...

[PTK]

But pilots who have the indicator, know how to use it, and understand AOA... now that is a much safer solution by far...

...To our dentist friend I have a question. Does this mean you refuse to have an xray machine in your practice? Why bother using an information instrument when you can just as well use your eyes?

To understand AOA means to understand that it is determined by a number of factors but primarily by airspeed, attitude, cg, weight. It's nice to have such info but the pilot can't be complacent and wait to look there first for answers. It is not a safer solution to react. It is much safer to be in control. AOA is a symptom of events that preceded it and caused it.

As with your x-ray analogy Mike, I understand the point you're trying to make but we're talking past each other.

Need to prevent the root cause of the symptom not react when the symptom appears.

How is this any different than fixating on an instrument and chasing needles?

Prevention is always the best solution.

Is it better to control the airplane or react to it? 

 

Is it better to mind airspeed and attitude according to configuration, weight, conditions, etc. and keep coordinated with the nose in line with the tail, or fixate on an AOA indicator?

 

[Alan Fox]

Also its my understanding that the wing always stalls at the same AOA ..... If this is correct , than why is the stall warning not suffient, ...

[201er]

Control the airplane rather than react to it. Mind airspeed and attitude according to configuration, weight, conditions, etc. and keep coordinated with the nose in line with the tail. This is the way to do it rather than reacting to an AOA indicator.

This is the best justification for HAVING an AOA indicator. Rather than reacting to the stall horn or making all these weight, cg, bank angle, speed assessments (even if you're not sitting there with a calculator it's a lot to think about in a moment's notice), you can simply fly the plane and validate that with the AOA.

 

In my typical pattern, of course I use the ASI. I use the ASI as an approximation of where I want to be. I fly the pitch attitude and validate with the ASI. My typically only reads below 100 knots so I don't reference it till base leg. I fly the speeds till then because they are good enough and leave plenty of margin. But as I begin those pattern turns, I'll glance at the AOA and not the ASI because knowing my speed in the turn is irrelevant. It's the AOA that is critical. Then on final, I mainly look outside and fly the plane, validate this with AOA and make adjustments if necessary, and only ocassionaly glance at the ASI as a cross reference to get a better idea of what speed the AOA puts me for that condition. Can I fly a good pattern without the AOA? Especially with all the data points I've learned having it, absolutely. Can I safely fly the pattern without the AOA or ASI? I'm pretty sure. But if you can justify that an ASI is beneficial to necessary for safely flying the pattern, then it's a good justification for the AOA cause it's actually the right tool for the job. Using the ASI for stall safety and performance climbs is like using a mop to wash carpet. It may work but it's not the right tool for the job.

 

Also its my understanding that the wing always stalls at the same AOA ..... If this is correct , than why is the stall warning not suffient, ...

Because the stall horn is only reactive. It only warns you when you've already screwed up. The AOA indicator gives you a visual read out of your angle of attack and helps you learn to fly (in all phases of the pattern) in the optimal configuration. In that steepening base/final turn scenario, the AOA will show you to stop increasing bank angle rather than the stall warning which is only going to give you a moments notice to try to recover. Also the AOA indicator helps you fly the right AOA to maintain 1.3Vso in any configuration, it helps you maintain Vx/Vy for a performance climb. You don't have to take all other variables (weight, cg, flaps, bank angle) into account because the indication is always valid regardless of configuration.

[PTK]

In my typical pattern, of course I use the ASI. I use the ASI as an approximation of where I want to be. I fly the pitch attitude and validate with the ASI.

 

I'll glance at the AOA and not the ASI because knowing my speed in the turn is irrelevant. 

 

In that steepening base/final turn scenario, the AOA will show you to stop increasing bank angle rather than the stall warning which is only going to give you a moments notice to try to recover. Also the AOA indicator helps you fly the right AOA to maintain 1.3Vso in any configuration, it helps you maintain Vx/Vy for a performance climb. You don't have to take all other variables (weight, cg, flaps, bank angle) into account because the indication is always valid regardless of configuration.

You use the ASI as an "approximation" but you "validate" pitch attitude with it?

Can't have it both ways. If it's used as a validating tool then you use it! Why don't you use your AOA indicator?

 

Mike do you use the ASI or don't you? 

 

I don't consider knowing my air speed "irrelevant". If air speed is irrelevant than what is relevant?

 

If you use the AOA to decide if you need to stop increasing bank angle and to maintain Vx/Vy, then you are reacting. The point is to control the airplane to the bank angle, attitude and AS you decide to fly. 

 

Fly the airplane rather than the other way around.

[bnicolette]

"Just when I thought I was out they pulled me back in"

 

 

 

The AOA indicator gives you a visual read out of your angle of attack and helps you learn to fly (in all phases of the pattern) in the optimal configuration.

 

Mike I'm not trying to be a smart ass but would you please explain to me what you think the above means?  A step by step if you will of what you are shooting for in that statement. 

 

I really am trying to figure out the real benefit of the AOA in a small aircraft but I'm having a hard time with it.  True it is another reference for a margin of safety but now your are referencing your airspeed and an AOA at a time when your eyes should be outside.  Also, the margin of safety should perhaps come in to play before you push the throttles forward to do that flight that is requiring such tight tolerances.  If for instance you need to know absolutely what your best perfect prefect climb angle is to clear some obstacles without hearing the stall horn, then perhaps you really shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.  If for instance you need to know absolutely what your perfect reference speed is or in the case of the AOA, your perfect angle that gives you 1.3 over stall, so that you can stop before hitting the other end of the proverbial fence, then perhaps you shouldn't of been there either.

 

I guess I just don't get what your striving for here, I'm sorry.  

[xftrplt]

I often plan and fly 45-60 degrees in the pattern at idle, full flaps, and (sometimes) speedbrakes.  Speed?  What feels comfortable.  AoA?  Below stall, using the G-available to turn, not maintain level flight.

Is this for the novice?  Probably not.  Safe?  IMO, yes.

[bnicolette]

Hey xftrplt I was wondering when you were going to chime in.     I knew it would be something like that too.  That's def not for the faint of heart though.   But you're absolutely right.  What ever happened to good ole seat of the pants flying????  Now we have to plug in before we start up.

You're Jenny prob didn't have AOA did it?  LOL  Just kidding.

[Skywarrior]

Hmmm...

 

To summarize:

 

1. If you would like to use an AOA indicator, then buy one and use it.

 

2. If you do not wish to use an AOA indicator, then do not buy one nor use one.

 

3. ...never mind, there's no third option.

 

<sheesh>

[Hank]

Huh.

 

My initial CFI taught me to not bank steeply in the pattern, to not bank steeper if I overshoot on base, and to just maintain my bank angle and fly the plane back to the correct final. On my rare visits to places with parallel runways, I've never been that far off-center--there's no room at home, I'd be inside the ridgeline. If I'm too wide to fly back, throttle in and go around.

 

AOA removes the doubt about just what a good speed is on final to a short field. The only short field I frequent is 2000' grass, and I never go there heavy; they don't sell fuel, so I don't worry about trying to leave heavy. Two people and 30-40 gals is my personal limit. Just how slow can I get? 75 mph - 5 mph per 300 lbs under gross is what? Oh, yeah, there's a twitchy crosswind that will go away as I enter the slot carved through the trees. Quick, Mr. No-Physics-Dentist, how fast should I be? Half flaps, gear down, stall at gross is 57 mph per the book. I'm 15 gal [90 lbs] below full, and am alone. 1.3 Vso = 74 mph at gross. I can't overshoot the base-to-final turn, there's a ridgeline ~200 yards away, parallel to the runway which sits behind a row of trees along the riverbank. If I land short, I'm either on the soccer fields or the parking lot for the soccer moms; if I land long, there's a gravel pile for the cement plant. What's the correct airspeed for me to fly?

 

THAT's what an Angle of Attack readout will give you. It tells you if you have a margin of safety between your speed right now and stall. Just like your ASI needle, the AOA needle moves, so if it is moving downward too close to the stall mark, lower the nose. If lowering the nose puts you below the desired glide path, add power just like always. If you're high and have a good cushion, slow down some.

 

At least, that's my interpretation of it all. An AOA can be beneficial, but I've never flown a plane that had one. Fly right, don't get in a tight spot, and for sure never try to steepen a turn or cross-control to make final, and you really won't need one. The place where an AOA gage is needed is in aircraft whose landing weight varies significantly, like when the fuel load at departure is more than the empty weight of the airframe, or in military aircraft that will be expelling ordinance and burning tons of fuel per hour.

 

Can AOA help GA? Sure. Is AOA necessary for GA? No. Can AOA help you out of a tight spot? Sure. So can a go around for a second try. I'm not too proud to go around, I did one on my initial solo in front of family and friends; I've gone around visiting new airports, too. Going around is not shameful, and is not a mark of poor piloting but rather bood ADM [i.e., this approach isn't good, lets go make one that will be easy to land].

 

In the meantime, Chuck has clearly nailed the options. Thanks, Chuck!

[Bennett]

Just a comment. An AOA instrument is only as good as its calibration. Most of the AOA units have a specific

methodology for calibration, and this should be followed to the letter, and checked several times. I had an AOA in my DOVA D-1, and frankly, I never trusted it because each time I tried to set up the

calibration, I got a (slightly) different result - that doesn't breed confidence.

If I had panel space near the ASI in my current Mooney, I would probably add one. I will check out some

units (again) at Oshkosh, and consider installing one if I make any further panel changes.