Upgrading panel, what would you consider most important for IFR?

[Webygail13]

Hey guys, I just started my IFR training in my 66 M20C.  My current setup is a 6 pack, 430 non-waas and a Garmin 225 radio.  I also have a Garmin 106 CDI.  I want to do some upgrades, but I'm trying to decide what I should do with my budget.  I don't want to spend anymore than $20k right now.  I need to upgrade my audio panel because the one in it is ancient and my audio is terrible.  So that is going to be about $3k right off of the top.  I'd like to have dual G5's so that I have an HSI.  I'd also like to have WAAS.  I had a quote to do a PS Engeering audio panel, replace my 430 with another 430 that is waas and install dual G5's, it was around $26k.  The 430w is not idea, but it would give me WAAS.  Another thought is doing the audio panel and going with a Garmin 650 or Avidyne 440 and staying with my 6 pack.  I don't know what I don't know yet about IFR, so I'm just looking for some opinions on what some experienced guys would do if you had my budget and wanted a more friendly IFR panel.  Thanks!

[Max Clark]

When I did mine I found that I was thinking about things backwards.

First, if you start with the autopilot, most of the rest of your decisions have already been made for you.

Example:

• What autopilot do you have / are you going to replace?
• Does the G5 support integration or do you have to use 275 instead?
• Based on the G5/275 what Navigator do you need?

When you go through this exercise you'll find that a lot has already been decided for you.

The second part is what navigation sources you want to use: VOR, ILS/LOC, GPS/RNAV, etc...

Third is deciding on your level of redundancy.

I bought my plane with IFD 540 & 440. I really liked them once I reprogrammed my brain from Garmin to their FMS style flow. The 540 screen size was nice, but the Jep charts were not worth it IMHO. I wanted to replace and have a modern autopilot, as soon as I committed to this path it was like a snowball rolling downhill.

In your shoes I would swap the GNS430 for an IFD440 (uses the same harness), and pair it with 2x 275s.

-Max

P.S. Don't sleep on the GNC 215 - awesome little NAV/COMM with VOR/ILS and OBS built in.

[Webygail13]

I don't have an auto pilot at all currently.  I really have thought about that as I've figured the other stuff should come first.  Would I be better off doing an auto pilot first?  

[Jackk]

I’d look into a 275 and something that’ll get you a flight director, kinda turns you into the auto pilot.  I’d rather have 1 275 with a FD than 2 G5s.

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

I don't have an auto pilot at all currently.  I really have thought about that as I've figured the other stuff should come first.  Would I be better off doing an auto pilot first?  

You kinda have to do the whole thing to get the full functionality.

GPS navigator, AP, and other parts the AP needs (GFC500 requires G5, G3X, etc).

[Slick Nick]

You don’t need WAAS. Your existing 430 is more than enough. While an HSI is nice, you certainly don’t need one to fly IFR, especially if your existing CDI has glideslope capability. 

Get yourself a new audio panel for sure, and update the intercom wiring if needed. As jacks and stuff wear out over the years they can be a big contributor to static on the intercom. 

[ArtVandelay]

You don’t need WAAS. Your existing 430 is more than enough. While an HSI is nice, you certainly don’t need one to fly IFR, especially if your existing CDI has glideslope capability. 

You do if you want to do LPV approaches, and because of their precision and popularity…you definitely do if want maximum capability.

[Slick Nick]

6 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

You do if you want to do LPV approaches, and because of their precision and popularity…you definitely do if want maximum capability.

For 99% of aviators, a baro-VNAV approach is going to suffice over LPV. If the weather is bad enough that you really need the lower LPV minima, you’d be doing an ILS anyway. LNAV/VNAV approaches are great for all of the smaller, underserved airports without ILS  capability. 

Recall that some runways served by an LPV approach only still do not have approach lighting, just runway lighting.

Edited January 16 by Slick Nick

[dkkim73]

@Webygail13 I might have missed an earlier intro, but I don't see a home base posted. What kind of airports you want and need to access might inform the WAAS question. I find it useful for my situation (LPV approaches, though I "just like" an ILS whenever it's available). I don't have experience with true Baro-VNAV but I am told there are places where you really want to use that (international). 

I personally find the autopilot practically expands my IFR capabilities in several ways. In a very busy airspace or varying destinations, long legs for commute, etc, I would very much want it. But, as cautioned, that will drive a number of dependencies that might blow your immediate budget. 

 

 

[jamesyql]

I just did a "budget friendly" panel upgrade so I think I can speak to this topic:

1. Autopilot: Focus on the autopilot as the backbone of your upgrade and strongly consider the GFC500. This will decrease your workload significantly and decrease fatigue. In my opinion, mandatory for single pilot IFR and extremely helpful for VFR.

2. GPS: If you are only flying VFR, do not worry about additional GPS capability, but if you are planning on flying LPV approaches then you need WAAS. ADSB is another consideration for US airspace and you would need WAAS with a paired transponder to satisfy this. Do not shy away from an affordable GNS430W, it will get the job done can be replaced later if needed, the new navigators are costly and would put you over budget to be able to afford an autopilot. I kept my 530W and its totally adequate.

3. EFIS: I believe if you are interfacing with older navcomms / etc you are best with the 275, but if you have a 430w it should work with dual G5s. This will also allow vac pump delete. I chose to upgrade my #2 navcomm to the GNC215 to allow it to talk to the dual G5s, allowing me to remove all other CDI / glideslope instrumentation.

4. Flight director: This is a function of the autopilot (GFC500) and not the EFIS. The flight director presents hollow magenta bars for which you to follow (as if you were the autopilot) to facilitate more precise hand flying. When the autopilot is active, the magenta bars become solid and the AP servos engage to follow the flight director cues. To my knowledge, a 275 on its own will not give you a flight director. My G5s present flight director bars only when the FD is engaged on the GFC500.

5. Timing/finances: do not let an avionics upgrade compromise your ability to take of other incidental mechanical maintenance issues that may pop up.

6. Depending on your location, consider a Canadian avionics shop, take advantage of competitive exchange and labo(u)r rates eh!

7. Don't forget good engine instrumentation, much more important than an avionics upgrade in my opinion. A JPI730 will do the trick.

FYI my panel now consists of Dual G5s, JPI EDM 730 (existing), GMA340 (existing) GNS530W (existing), GTX335 (existing), GNC215, GFC500 (3 servos). This came to ~35k USD installed which I think was reasonable value. For a 20k budget perhaps you could get a new audio panel (sounds like you need it, maybe find a used one) + GFC500 with a single G5, and keep everything else for now. If money to spare do the 430W upgrade and transponder.

Best of luck!

[Ragsf15e]

53 minutes ago, Webygail13 said:

I don't have an auto pilot at all currently.  I really have thought about that as I've figured the other stuff should come first.  Would I be better off doing an auto pilot first?  

I might also skip waas.  It’s good for sure, but you can still do gps approaches just fine without it.  When you’re brand new ifr rated you probably don’t need 200 and 1/2 mins.  And if you do, you’ll still have the ils from the old 430!  Then go for the 2x g5s or 2xgi275s and they will be closer to your $20k with the audio panel.

[Webygail13]

I actually already have an engine monitor, so that is good for right now.  I fear that the G5's and auto pilot would put me close to double my budget.  I agree that the auto pilot would be the best upgrade, as it would benefit me in every phase of flight regardless of conditions.  I wish I had an extra $80k laying around and could just go all out at once!haha

[jamesyql]

6 minutes ago, Webygail13 said:

I actually already have an engine monitor, so that is good for right now.  I fear that the G5's and auto pilot would put me close to double my budget.  I agree that the auto pilot would be the best upgrade, as it would benefit me in every phase of flight regardless of conditions.  I wish I had an extra $80k laying around and could just go all out at once!haha

Excellent re: engine monitor. Audio panel can typically be replaced pretty easily so maybe separate the issues and do the audio panel to start if it is really limiting you. I think starting with AP for your avionics is the right move. If it is out of the budget right now, I would defer the upgrade and enjoy the plane as is. No sense of having an IFR capable plane and no autopilot to make it safe to fly IFR. Curious, is there anyone on here flying IFR regularly without an autopilot?

Also- for US pilots. Don't you need WAAS with ADSB to fly in a majority of busier airspace? I have it, so haven't considered this question when I fly to the states.

[dkkim73]

5 minutes ago, jamesyql said:

Also- for US pilots. Don't you need WAAS with ADSB to fly in a majority of busier airspace? I have it, so haven't considered this question when I fly to the states.

Good catch. 

https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/ads-b/what-do-i-need

I saw a GNS 430W used for $5,600 USD online. So a standalone receiver for ADS-B would be a significant fraction of that (e.g. uAvionix tailbeacon over $2000, so worth folding in). 

21 minutes ago, jamesyql said:

6. Depending on your location, consider a Canadian avionics shop, take advantage of competitive exchange and labo(u)r rates eh!

 

Free Molson Canadian in the waiting area?

[jamesyql]

Just now, dkkim73 said:

Free Molson Canadian in the waiting area?

We can do better than that!

[Aerodon]

 

Post a picture of your panel.

 

What Transponder & engine monitor do you have?

 

Aerodon

 

 

2 hours ago, Webygail13 said:

Hey guys, I just started my IFR training in my 66 M20C.  My current setup is a 6 pack, 430 non-waas and a Garmin 225 radio.  I also have a Garmin 106 CDI.  I want to do some upgrades, but I'm trying to decide what I should do with my budget.  I don't want to spend anymore than $20k right now.  I need to upgrade my audio panel because the one in it is ancient and my audio is terrible.  So that is going to be about $3k right off of the top.  I'd like to have dual G5's so that I have an HSI.  I'd also like to have WAAS.  I had a quote to do a PS Engeering audio panel, replace my 430 with another 430 that is waas and install dual G5's, it was around $26k.  The 430w is not idea, but it would give me WAAS.  Another thought is doing the audio panel and going with a Garmin 650 or Avidyne 440 and staying with my 6 pack.  I don't know what I don't know yet about IFR, so I'm just looking for some opinions on what some experienced guys would do if you had my budget and wanted a more friendly IFR panel.  Thanks!

 

[hammdo]

This is mine:

AeroCruze 100 autopilot, G5s, GNC355, Insight G2 engine monitor, Garmin 327 transponder, BK 155 basic but very functional…

-Don

[Webygail13]

This is what I currently have.  My engine monitor is the old school electronics international gauges.  Not the most clutter free thing, but it gives me all the data I need.

 

Edited January 16 by Webygail13
Better pic

[Jackk]

2 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

You don’t need WAAS. Your existing 430 is more than enough. While an HSI is nice, you certainly don’t need one to fly IFR, especially if your existing CDI has glideslope capability. 

Get yourself a new audio panel for sure, and update the intercom wiring if needed. As jacks and stuff wear out over the years they can be a big contributor to static on the intercom. 

 ^ VERY UNDERRATED FACT

 

 For what most recreational pilots fly IFR in they ain’t shooting it low enough to need LPV mins, plus you still have ILS capabilities on the 430

 

 The most used plus with WAAS is that complementary glide slope so you don’t have to dive and drive it 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, jamesyql said:

Excellent re: engine monitor. Audio panel can typically be replaced pretty easily so maybe separate the issues and do the audio panel to start if it is really limiting you. I think starting with AP for your avionics is the right move. If it is out of the budget right now, I would defer the upgrade and enjoy the plane as is. No sense of having an IFR capable plane and no autopilot to make it safe to fly IFR. Curious, is there anyone on here flying IFR regularly without an autopilot?

Also- for US pilots. Don't you need WAAS with ADSB to fly in a majority of busier airspace? I have it, so haven't considered this question when I fly to the states.

Well not really, but yes, sort of.  You do need WAAS with your ADSB, but many "cheaper" ADSB out solutions come with an integrated WAAS gps (such as uavonix tailbeacon https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/uavionix_11-17246.php).  Now if you go that route, you don't get WAAS for the IFR approach capability, but you are legal for ADSB.  If you get a WAAS IFR gps and then use that to feed an ADSB out transponder, there's likely a lot more $$ involved.

Does the airplane currently have ADSB out?

If you go the G5 or GI275 route, you can do the autopilot later as those units would work with the GFC500.

[Webygail13]

Yes, the transponder has ADSB-out and WAAS.  It's a Stratus ESG.  

[Mscheuer]

3 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

You don’t need WAAS. Your existing 430 is more than enough. While an HSI is nice, you certainly don’t need one to fly IFR, especially if your existing CDI has glideslope capability. 

Get yourself a new audio panel for sure, and update the intercom wiring if needed. As jacks and stuff wear out over the years they can be a big contributor to static on the intercom. 

The audio panel used to be the Rodney Dangerfield until PS Engineering starting bringing innovation to the audio panel. 

PMA8000G

PMA450C

Mark Scheuer

[Ragsf15e]

17 minutes ago, Webygail13 said:

Yes, the transponder has ADSB-out and WAAS.  It's a Stratus ESG.  

So adsb is fine then for now.

Ok, so personally, I’d focus on giving yourself a reasonable ifr platform that can be upgraded with an autopilot as funds allow.  Definitely do the audio panel.  After that, G5s or GI275s.  When you do those, ask for a quote to do a bare bones gfc500 install as well so you know how much that will cost.  It can be pretty easily upgraded (more servos added) in the future.  A basic 2 servo gfc500 will give you altitude hold and lateral steering.  No trim or yaw damper but it’s still good.  I would price 2xG5s and the gfc500.  Go with the G5s, work on your ifr, get the gfc500 when you can.

 The 430w just isn’t buying you much in my opinion.  It gets you lpv mins instead of rnav, but you already have an ILS.

[Slick Nick]

2 hours ago, jamesyql said:

. Curious, is there anyone on here flying IFR regularly without an autopilot?.

I am. My plane was one of the few MSE’s never equipped with an autopilot from the factory. I fly IFR/IMC all the time. It’s important to make sure you maintain proficiency if doing so, however. 

[Slick Nick]

2 hours ago, jamesyql said:

Also- for US pilots. Don't you need WAAS with ADSB to fly in a majority of busier airspace? I have it, so haven't considered this question when I fly to the states.

Technically yes, but I’ve planned way around busy class B’s (SLC and LAS come to mind) and made it clear to controllers that I was not ADS-B equipped, and still had them shortcut me right through the airspace with no issue. It may be a “workload permitting” thing, or perhaps they just considered me to be a dumb Canadian who didn’t know any better