201 panel upgrade starts

[Aerodon]

52 minutes ago, CCAS said:

Awesome and timely input! I knew I read somewhere on MS a discussion related to the gear down annunciator dimming; I just forgot the context until you made this post. I’ll have a chat with the lead avionics tech and let him know I’m leaning toward leaving them alone. Thanks! 

Are you keeping the annunciator panel?  new gear down annunciator?  Either way, its easy to re-wire now so you can install LED's later.

In 'general terms' the gear annunciator is powered through the gear down limit switch.   The annunciator is just a light.  It is grounded to the nav light switch.  When the  nav lights are off, it's a 'strong ground' - bright.  When the nav lights are on its a 'weak ground' - dim.

So take the ground off the nav light switch and straight to ground and it will always be bright.  Put a toggle switch in the ground line a a resistor on one side and you will have bright / dim.

I am replacing the annunciator panel with nice Eaton annunciators, and a Brite/Dim switch, I will have to experiment with resistors to get the correct dimming.

 

Aerodon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[shawnd]

Yeah, the EIS data should be available for download via USB either through GSB-15 (apparently a finicky thing) and the USB dongle. I have two years of GP subscription available so I guess I am going to use it for what it's worth. GP already crashed on me during a recent taxi test... I have ForeFlight available and is still my primary EFB.

[201Mooniac]

12 minutes ago, shawnd said:

Yeah, the EIS data should be available for download via USB either through GSB-15 (apparently a finicky thing) and the USB dongle.

Curious what you find finicky about the GSB-15?  I have two, one is connected to each of my GI 275 and neither has been an issue for me so I'm curious what is different?

[shawnd]

9 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

Curious what you find finicky about the GSB-15?  I have two, one is connected to each of my GI 275 and neither has been an issue for me so I'm curious what is different?

The installer updated the software on the 275 and the GSB-15 wasn't able to pull configuration data for him anymore. When Garmin tech support was engaged, they cited GSBs can be finicky and to install the dongle. Dongle worked first time. I am going to diagnose this later - more urgent thing is to get flying again.

[201Mooniac]

1 hour ago, shawnd said:

The installer updated the software on the 275 and the GSB-15 wasn't able to pull configuration data for him anymore. When Garmin tech support was engaged, they cited GSBs can be finicky and to install the dongle. Dongle worked first time. I am going to diagnose this later - more urgent thing is to get flying again.

Interesting, thanks for sharing, I'll have to watch out for that.

[toto]

6 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I don’t think you’ll need the GP subscription to use the eis… however, I haven’t tried it.  Ill see if I can do it tomorrow.  I’m thinking the subscription buys all the maps/charts and planning functions, but I’ve been wrong before!

My experience with GP is that basically nothing works without a subscription. You can get to the settings page where you enter subscription information and almost nothing else.

[Slick Nick]

9 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I left my wingtip halogens alone.  If you change them to LED you have an issue with the annunciator (Gear Down) dimming.  There are work arounds, but considering how much of a PITA it is to change the bulb, and you may need to change the socket AND do the work around so the Gear Down is not dimmed all the time.........

 

Just pull the return wire off the back of the switch. Annunciator remains bright. Not even bad at night. Reversible and takes about 60 seconds. 

[Slick Nick]

9 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I left my wingtip halogens alone.  If you change them to LED you have an issue with the annunciator (Gear Down) dimming.  There are work arounds, but considering how much of a PITA it is to change the bulb, and you may need to change the socket AND do the work around so the Gear Down is not dimmed all the time.........

 

Just pull the return wire off the back of the switch. Annunciator remains bright. Not even bad at night. Reversible and takes about 60 seconds. 

[shawnd]

6 hours ago, toto said:

My experience with GP is that basically nothing works without a subscription. You can get to the settings page where you enter subscription information and almost nothing else.

Correct. But to fly you don't need GP to use the EIS. It has a feature which can stream EIS data to GP while flying. But you can't access that immediately. It is sent up to the Garmin cloud for processing and then made available at a later date. If you didn't have GP, you can use the EIS instrument as is and then use the dongle to download EIS data for upload to your service of choice. GSB-15 is supposed to work, but apparently new updates are breaking it. It's annoying but I am falling back to what works and having him install the dongle in the slot beside the vacuum indicator since my electric standby has been removed.

[jetdriven]

On 1/18/2025 at 6:20 PM, toto said:

I always have an iPad in my lap with EIS via Garmin Pilot. So if the LCD craps out, GP is an easy backup. 

The Bluetooth comes from the 275 EIS display so you’re betting that the unit works, just the display goes bad, also the GEA24B must work as well. That’s a pretty narrow set of failures. Personally the only thing I need to keep going is an oil pressure gauge , the rest of it’s nice to have but not critical. 

[toto]

7 hours ago, shawnd said:

It has a feature which can stream EIS data to GP while flying. But you can't access that immediately. It is sent up to the Garmin cloud for processing and then made available at a later date.

I’m not sure that I follow. The EIS on GP is a real time feed. My engine instruments are duplicated on the iPad, and adjustments are visible immediately. As you said, EIS data is also included in the flight data logging for later review, but you don’t need the flight data log to use EIS on GP. 

[toto]

5 hours ago, jetdriven said:

That’s a pretty narrow set of failures.

I’ve certainly lost an LCD or two in my flying career while the rest of the unit continued working 

Having a backup LCD on the iPad is cheap insurance for an LCD failure, but obviously the plane doesn’t fall out of the sky if you lose EIS. It’s a differentiating factor for GP over other EFB options.  

[CCAS]

Looking for thoughts from those smarter than me who understand the Garmin high speed data bus and RS232 connection architecture.  I'll be following up later this week with my avionics shop to discuss system integration and redundancy with the new panel (primarily how the G500TXi, GFC500, GTN650Xi, GNX375, GI275 ADAHRS, GI275 EIS, GTR205 and Aera 760 will be tied together) so I've been trying to educate myself on how data moves between systems and how Garmin expects (via STC) the units to be interfaced. A couple of my expectations (some of which may need to be challenged):  

- G500TXi is primary flight display; if the GDU1060 fails, then the GI275 ADAHRS becomes primary flight display.

- GFC500 autopilot is driven only by the GI275 ADAHRS (i.e., if that GI275 fails, I no longer have an autopilot)

- In addition to the GI275 ADAHRS being the backup AI, can it be configured to act as a MFD so I can use it either for traffic display or second EIS page?

- GTN650Xi is #1 GPS/Nav/Comm and primary Nav source for GFC500; if the GTN fails, I want the GNX375 to pick up GPS duties for the autopilot and the PFD.

- GNX375 is #2 GPS and source for ADS-B In traffic and weather (ADS-B In data to be available on the G500TXi, the GTN650Xi, the GI275, and the Aera 760) 

- Aera 760 is yoke mounted and treated as a backup display hardwired to the GNX375 for both MapMX data and ADS-B In data.  Bluetooth connection to be determined. 

- GTR 205 is #2 Comm with hardwire connection with Aera 760 to allow radio frequency input from the 760.  

- Database Sync updates all systems with nav database and EFB pubs (charts, smart taxi, etc)

I'm sure this primative architecture drawing isn't the 'right' solution but what would need to be changed to gain as much functionality as listed above given the limited data ports available on each device?  

[shawnd]

Regarding the questions above - some points from my installation:

1. The GMU is connected to the PFD per STC via HSDB. I believe you also have a GMU-44. If the PFD were to fail, the GMU is no longer part of the system and the standby will lose heading information. You will have to fall back on the magnetic compass. In G3X systems, they are connected via CAN bus so the standby is still able to communicate with the GMU to retrieve heading information. If you still have whiskey compass, should upgrade to the card compass or a PFD failure may lead you to emptying out the compass contents...
2. The GI-275 standby could have its non ADI pages enabled but I believe it's not allowed per STC.
3. In addition to point (2), the standby EIS pages can be activated as well to have 2 screens showing EIS data, but your GI-275 that is configured with the GEA-24 or GEA-110 is the primary. If that is shut down, EIS data won't be available on the standby's EIS page.
4. With the latest greatest software versions, appropriate databases can be synced across all devices - I have tested with Concierge for the G500, GI275, GTN750 and GTN 650 using FlightStream 510 in the GTN 750. Once you have your system IDs, you go to fly.garmin.com and set up your devices for the aircraft and purchase the database subscription. 

I would leave the standby as is for safety and reduction of complexity. One of the local instructors recommended using the GTNs for navigation only and the G500 MFD for information reference. In my setup, I am planning on keeping the GTN 750 as the moving map with flight plan, 650 for textual navigation information and the G500 MFD for traffic/terrain/chart/etc. Although I am still finding Foreflight to be better at viewing charts than any instrument on the panel.

[ArtVandelay]

The GFC 507 doesn’t use the high speed bus, neither does any of the original experimental boxes (G3X, GDL50, G5), I think there’s a GAD 29B box in there as well.
I put in a AV20S to serve as a tertiary AI backup, it’s completely self contained and doesn’t require any Garmin connections.

[Pinecone]

The GFC-507 also doesn't have databases to update.

One point, the G3X does not update through Database Synch.  So if you have G3X based panel, you still need to do SD cards for updates.  But it will drive the GFC-500 directly as will the GI-275 or G-5 backup AI.

[CCAS]

20 hours ago, shawnd said:

The GMU is connected to the PFD per STC via HSDB. I believe you also have a GMU-44.

Thanks Shawn. I forgot about the GMU - I'll add the GMU-44 to my next drawing interation

I'll also check with the avionics shop about whether the Standby GI275 has any configuration options other than as a standby and post what I learn. 

I'm hoping the Aera760 paired with GP will cover most of what I've used Foreflight for in the past but I still plan to keep FF available for a while to compare.

18 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

The GFC 507 doesn’t use the high speed bus

Good catch - doing some follow up searches online it looks like the GMC507 uses RS232 and CAN BUS lines.  I'll move the GMC507 outside the HSDB loop.  I haven't seen a GAD-29 in the parts list for my upgrade but I'll investigate.  

 

10 hours ago, Pinecone said:

So if you have G3X based panel, you still need to do SD cards for updates.

My panel is a G500TXi solution (similar to shawnd's panel) so counting on the Data Sync function. But Garmin did implement nice integration between G3X/G5 and GFC500. 

[Pinecone]

I went through the G500TXi versus G3X thing.

The only advantage of the G500TXi that I could see was the Database Synch.  The G500TXi/GI-275 are better if you are integrating with non-Garmin things like autopilots.   But my panel is all Garmin (except the PSE 450B).

[Z W]

I have a 500TXi, G5, GTN650, GNC355, GFC500, GTX345. Database sync works very well. The installer said with that configuration he had to make the GTN650 "Primary" for databases and so the database card goes in it. You can make just one card and it pushes out to all the other devices.

We added a Flightstream 510 to use Database Concierge and update wirelessly though Garmin Pilot. It didn't work at all at first. Then, I think after a Garmin Pilot update for my Android phone, I was able to get it working. But, it's so slow I don't like to use it. You power up, it prompts whether you want to update the databases through Concierge, and if you hit yes, sometimes you have to sit there for 15 minutes while it wirelessly transfers the databases and updates, then you have to shut the radios off and back on again, then sometimes they update again. I don't want to run the panel that long on battery power so the plane either needs to be running or plugged in to a ground power unit. And if I'm trying to go somewhere, it adds 15+ minutes to the preflight process.

I wouldn't spend the money again on the Flightstream. I prefer to just make a SD card. Pop it in where the Flightstream goes in the GTN and everything updates in just a couple of minutes.

[CCAS]

44 minutes ago, Z W said:

I wouldn't spend the money again on the Flightstream. I prefer to just make a SD card.

That checks with others I've spoken to about Flightstream updates being a bit slow. After chatting with @donkaye I opted to forego the 510 and apply that budget to adding LHS instead. Thanks for the recommendation about using the GTN650Xi as the primary data card recipient...I'll plan for that.

[shawnd]

On the GSB-15 issue:

On 2/4/2025 at 12:28 PM, shawnd said:

The installer updated the software on the 275 and the GSB-15 wasn't able to pull configuration data for him anymore. When Garmin tech support was engaged, they cited GSBs can be finicky and to install the dongle. Dongle worked first time. I am going to diagnose this later - more urgent thing is to get flying again.

Gotta love my installer—Garmin's "switch to Dongle because the GSB-15 is finicky" response bothered him enough at 4 AM that he remembered some tips and went back to the airplane before delivery to double-check something.

Sure enough, one of the crimp pins in the 6-pin terminal had broken off. However, due to the design, the wire remained neatly in place, making it appear intact at a glance or with a light tug. But if you pulled each wire individually, wire #2 would come loose.

Apparently, this happens frequently. So if your GSB-15 data stops working, check that each wire and crimp pin is still properly connected.

[shawnd]

1 hour ago, CCAS said:

That checks with others I've spoken to about Flightstream updates being a bit slow. After chatting with @donkaye I opted to forego the 510 and apply that budget to adding LHS instead. Thanks for the recommendation about using the GTN650Xi as the primary data card recipient...I'll plan for that.

One benefit I’ve really appreciated about the FS510 is the ability to update software on the go. When flying to remote locations, I can update the software at my hotel using just my flight iPads, then apply the update to the aircraft without needing a laptop, SD card adapter, or SD cards.

The GTN can be updated while the airplane is powered on and the engine is running—just be sure to find a safe location away from passersby and lean out the engine.

I use both an iPad Pro and an iPad Mini. Since the Pro has significantly better battery life, I use it for software updates while my flight iPad handles its regular duties.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, Z W said:

I have a 500TXi, G5, GTN650, GNC355, GFC500, GTX345. Database sync works very well. The installer said with that configuration he had to make the GTN650 "Primary" for databases and so the database card goes in it. You can make just one card and it pushes out to all the other devices.

We added a Flightstream 510 to use Database Concierge and update wirelessly though Garmin Pilot. It didn't work at all at first. Then, I think after a Garmin Pilot update for my Android phone, I was able to get it working. But, it's so slow I don't like to use it. You power up, it prompts whether you want to update the databases through Concierge, and if you hit yes, sometimes you have to sit there for 15 minutes while it wirelessly transfers the databases and updates, then you have to shut the radios off and back on again, then sometimes they update again. I don't want to run the panel that long on battery power so the plane either needs to be running or plugged in to a ground power unit. And if I'm trying to go somewhere, it adds 15+ minutes to the preflight process.

I wouldn't spend the money again on the Flightstream. I prefer to just make a SD card. Pop it in where the Flightstream goes in the GTN and everything updates in just a couple of minutes.

I have an FS-510 and it updates fairly quickly.  A few minutes.

One thing to check with your installer to make sure that the high speed data transfer is enabled.  So that once your 650 gets updated, the other boxes update quickly.

In my setup, my 750Xi is primary and 650Xi is updated from the 750.  That takes maybe a minute (no charts).

For me, the long time is the G3X as it requires a card to update it.  And that takes longer than the FS-510. And I have two G3Xs, so either I have to do two cards, to do the update thing twice and wait.

Next update cycle, I need to time the updates.

[shawnd]

Agree with @Pinecone check your HSDB settings; the database updates without FliteCharts are quick. FliteCharts itself isn't bad compared to Terrain database. But you only need to update that once in a blue moon.

[Z W]

4 hours ago, shawnd said:

One benefit I’ve really appreciated about the FS510 is the ability to update software on the go. When flying to remote locations, I can update the software at my hotel using just my flight iPads, then apply the update to the aircraft without needing a laptop, SD card adapter, or SD cards.

This would be a good use case for the FS510 I had not considered. I don't travel often enough or for long enough to find much use for this, but others might. And I may someday hop in the plane to come home and be glad I have the option to tap "Yes" for updates and update the plane running on the ramp.