GFC-500 750XI Approach Questions

[Speed Merchant]

I has a 201 with a GFC-500, a 750Xi and a G3X. I have two questions regarding holds and missed approaches.

1. If you have to hold at an IAF with a charted hold is the published holding description what shows up when you push Way Point Options Hold at a Waypoint? Or you you have to enter the information?

2. At the Missed approach point when you push the TOGA button and a magenta line provides guidance to the published hold do you have to press the NAV button or does the TOGA being pushed provide the required action? I understand that if the missed approach instructions are not the published ones or course the HDG button has to be pushed.

Thanks

 

Curt

[201Mooniac]

Curt,

If the hold at the IAF is a HILPT, then the hold will be included in the loading of the approach and depending on your direction of arrival at the IAF, it will ask if you want to hold there. 

When you push the TOGA button, the GFC 500 will go into GA mode which is a wings level pitch up of 7 degrees.  This will accomplish the initial climb portion of the missed approach.  To follow the navigation portion of the missed approach, you need to push the NAV button once you have begun the climb and cleaned up the plane for the missed.  If there is a straight ahead climb to an altitude before turning, there will be an altitude waypoint so pushing NAV will not turn you too soon.

Hope this helps.

Adam

[Speed Merchant]

1 hour ago, 201Mooniac said:

Curt,

If the hold at the IAF is a HILPT, then the hold will be included in the loading of the approach and depending on your direction of arrival at the IAF, it will ask if you want to hold there. 

When you push the TOGA button, the GFC 500 will go into GA mode which is a wings level pitch up of 7 degrees.  This will accomplish the initial climb portion of the missed approach.  To follow the navigation portion of the missed approach, you need to push the NAV button once you have begun the climb and cleaned up the plane for the missed.  If there is a straight ahead climb to an altitude before turning, there will be an altitude waypoint so pushing NAV will not turn you too soon.

Hope this helps.

Adam

Adam good to hear from you. Happy New Year! You know that is what I thought but yesterday I was doing an IPC and my instructor wanted me to hold at an IAF which was in the center of the T. I pushed the hold at a fix button and the hold it depicted was on the wrong side of the course line. Then the tower cleared me for the approach so I didn't really get the chance to sort it out. Holds happen so infrequently that it is easy to get rusty. How is the original Super 201 cowling holding up?

Curt

[201Mooniac]

Curt,

Happy New Year.  If the hold was not a hold in lieu of procedure turn (HILPT) then it won't have automatically been put into the flight plan and it won't have offered the option.  When you push the hold at waypoint button, it is allowing you to build a user hold which requires you to input the hold course, inbound or outbound direction, turn direction, leg type and EFC.  In the GTN Xi Series Pilots Guide you can find it in the Navigation section, I've attached the relevant page.

The Cowling is still great, no problems with it at all.  The only issue I every have is with the landing light cover, mine doesn't match the production one so it is hard to get.

Adam

 

User Holds.pdf

[Speed Merchant]

Thanks Adam I appreciate your help. I will have to check it out in my plane tomorrow. Hopefully I have it now.

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, Speed Merchant said:

Adam good to hear from you. Happy New Year! You know that is what I thought but yesterday I was doing an IPC and my instructor wanted me to hold at an IAF which was in the center of the T. I pushed the hold at a fix button and the hold it depicted was on the wrong side of the course line. Then the tower cleared me for the approach so I didn't really get the chance to sort it out. Holds happen so infrequently that it is easy to get rusty. How is the original Super 201 cowling holding up?

Curt

That’s one of the scenarios in my six  “GPS Tasks Pilot Don’t Know How To Do.” If you are coming in on a NoPT transition, the hold in lieu will not be loaded. If you get an instruction to hold as published there, just reload the approach (6-10 seconds) with the IAF/IF as the transition. The hold will be there. Glad your CFI did it. It’s not an uncommon scenario. But why didn’t that CFI show you how?

To your first question, TOGA gives you a 7 degree wings level climb to initiate the missed. But at some point, you need to tell the GFC what to do by selecting a vertical and lateral mode. Think about what would happen if it automated the missed:

ATC: On the missed, fly runway heading. Climb and maintain 3,000.

ATC (a few minutes later): Why are you making a 180 and stopping at 2000?

 

[Speed Merchant]

Thank you for your post. Reloading the approach allows you to use the IAF as a transition. I guess reloading the transition only applies if you didn't use the IAF as the transition when you first loaded the approach. 
What are the other 5 GPS tasks pilots don't know how to do? My instructor may have told me how to but we were in very crowded airspace and in the middle of the holding the tower said cleared for the approach so we joined the course line. Thanks again.

Curt

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Speed Merchant said:

Thank you for your post. Reloading the approach allows you to use the IAF as a transition. I guess reloading the transition only applies if you didn't use the IAF as the transition when you first loaded the approach. 
What are the other 5 GPS tasks pilots don't know how to do? My instructor may have told me how to but we were in very crowded airspace and in the middle of the holding the tower said cleared for the approach so we joined the course line. Thanks again.

Curt

Right. If the hold is already loaded, all you have to do is go there. The discussion would be part of the debrief. I take notes about debrief items during flights.

Here's the Six. I use at least one in flight during an IPC and will discuss at least one other on the ground because they are so common.

 

[Marc_B]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

To your first question, TOGA gives you a 7 degree wings level climb to initiate the missed. But at some point, you need to tell the GFC what to do by selecting a vertical and lateral mode.

And an important distinction is that if your TOGA is wired for it, pressing TOGA will PITCH 7 deg up, ROLL wings level AND sequence the missed approach using GPS in your GTN.  But the pilot has to select the AP mode to follow.

So TOGA will change the CDI to GPS, and in the GTN will sequence the remainder of the procedure all the way through the missed approach point and then through the GPS track for missed approach.  Even if you pressed TOGA 5 miles away, the GPS track will stay laterally on the approach through the MAP.  (as an aside, it also disarms the GP/GS and will not follow it anymore...)

Here in Colorado, it's important to not start your missed approach until you've passed the MAP.  (Of course if ATC is giving you terrain and obstacle clearance that's different.)

[Thedude]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Right. If the hold is already loaded, all you have to do is go there. The discussion would be part of the debrief. I take notes about debrief items during flights.

Here's the Six. I use at least one in flight during an IPC and will discuss at least one other on the ground because they are so common.

 

Do you have more details on how to handle these scenarios and what people do wrong?

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, Marc_B said:

And an important distinction is that if your TOGA is wired for it, pressing TOGA will PITCH 7 deg up, ROLL wings level AND sequence the missed approach using GPS in your GTN.  But the pilot has to select the AP mode to follow.

Yes. It will sequence to the missed but fortunately not follow it until you say so.

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, Thedude said:

Do you have more details on how to handle these scenarios and what people do wrong?

Most instructors who teach avionics have seen most if not all of these. It's often not a matter of doing something wrong but rather rather either not knowing how to do it at all or not understanding how it applies to multiple situations.  My #4 is a perfect example of the latter. I'm sure if one has received any instruments training at all with the equipment, they have completed an approach, gone missed, and loaded a different approach. The process is identical for the three sub-scenarios, including the one that began this thread. Although it's not first on the list, a fatal accident that I'm pretty sure was because of it was the reason I made the list to begin with.

#6 was a big surprise because a instruction to go direct to the IF and be cleared straight in is not unusual and I think is becoming more and more common even at towered airports instead of vectors to final. It's kind of the opposite of the 1st question in this thread. The hold is there and you need to get rid of it. I pretty much do that one on every IPC as part of a fully-coupled ILS approach.  The pilot either doesn't realize the hold is there (part of a much larger error-not checking the current status of the flight plan) or just doesn't know how (there are two good options and a third I don't like). But it's fun to see what the pilot does when the AP turns outbound rather than inbound for the straight in.