Emergency Procedures

[Barneyw]

When I purchased my aircraft the only operational documents I received was an original AFM from 1967 and a rather tatty old POH. I was given a copy of a SureCheck checklist for the M20F. These official documents gave me basic information on systems, normal operations, field and flight performance and precious little else. When I learnt to fly in 19xxxxx in a PA-28 I was given a generic book to pre-brief myself, given instruction on inter alia EFATO and PFL which served me as I moved between similar aircraft. I've learnt a lot about aviation since those innocent and heady days. When I was taught forced landings, for example it was attitude for 80kts 1000' abeam the upwind end of the field and flap as required to get it in. It got me thinking what is the forced landing pattern for a Mooney? What is best - abeam the field at 1000' gear up or maybe a high key / low key pattern gear down abeam the field. So I asked the so called experts and it was a case of asking 10 different people the same question and getting 10 different answers. (exaggerated for effect).

So I would like to open up it up to the floor so to speak and ask the following:

1. Did Mooney ever produce EP's for the pre J models?

2. Were later Mooney models provided with a more comprehensive POH including EP's?

3. Does anyone use SureCheck - are there any alternatives?

4. Has there ever been a published diagram of the recommended forced landing pattern?

5. What forced landing pattern do you use?  Has anyone gone to the trouble of drawing it up? What is taught?

Should be an interesting discussion and i apologise if it has been brought up before but I searched and couldn't find anything.

Cheers

Barney

[M20F]

I feel you are over thinking this.  Best glide, figure out landing spot, achieve some sort of landing without dying.  
 
I don’t know how one in an emergency can establish themselves 1000’ / 80yrs / abeam the numbers except by happenstance.  

[AndreiC]

On my most recent BFR my instructor decided to test me on engine-out landings. He pulled the power abeam the numbers and said "go". The first time it went terrible, as I dropped the gear immediately and would not have made the field. Second time I did much better, though I landed a bit long. My current best guess at what the engine-out landing procedure should be is:

-- trim immediately for best glide (100-105mph depending on gross weight);

-- turn slightly towards the field, but continue flying a pattern

-- drop gear and flaps only when landing is made

-- slow down to landing speed (80 mph over the fence)

For me at least this workload was enough that I did not have time to attempt any engine restart procedures from pattern altitude, so if engine out happens at that altitude and I don't have a great guess for why it happened, I would only focus on landing. 

I would be very curious to hear what others have to say.

[Marc_B]

This is one of the best reasons for a non-commercial pilot to get their commercial rating. It’s all about energy management, emergency descents, better control around points, and target engine out 180s. I think that reps with these with an instructor will be WAY easier than trying to figure out yourself. 

[Barneyw]

27 minutes ago, M20F said:

I feel you are over thinking this.  Best glide, figure out landing spot, achieve some sort of landing without dying.  
 
I don’t know how one in an emergency can establish themselves 1000’ / 80yrs / abeam the numbers except by happenstance.  

Hi M20F 

I think you need to re read my post the 80kts was in reference to the PA-28 when I was taught to fly. I never over think stuff I am just being thoughtful.

In any event it wasn't a manifesto I was just trying to open it up for discussion.

Cheers

[redbaron1982]

What about turning the fuel valve to the shut-off position and the master switch off? I guess landing in "almost" one piece is key, but it is also as important not to burn to death after landing.

[N201MKTurbo]

I would second the commercial power off landing. Even if you have no intention on getting your commercial license, practice that maneuver. The best way to figure out how to plan and execute a power off landing is practice, practice, practice. You will get a feel for it and will know how much downwind and base is necessary to hit your spot. The Mooney is different than most planes. The Mooney glides very well, so there is as much chance of overshooting your spot as coming up short. Both are bad.

[N201MKTurbo]

41 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

What about turning the fuel valve to the shut-off position and the master switch off? I guess landing in "almost" one piece is key, but it is also as important not to burn to death after landing.

While that is a good idea, most people who burn to death in a Mooney crash die from knocking a wing off and rupturing a fuel tank. Turning off the master is a great idea, because it will remove a lot of ignition sources for all that gas that was scattered around.

[N201MKTurbo]

The saving grace for a lot of engine failure accidents is that the engine failure was caused by fuel exhaustion. So no post impact fire. 

[N201MKTurbo]

I have told quite a few passengers to randomly pull the throttle to idle while we are flying so I can practice engine out. So far nobody has done it....

[Fly Boomer]

8 hours ago, Barneyw said:

3. Does anyone use SureCheck - are there any alternatives?

I have read several posters who took the basic checklist from the AFM/POH and modified it to fit their needs.

[PeteMc]

8 hours ago, AndreiC said:

I dropped the gear immediately and would not have made the field.

I changed my procedures for dropping the gear quite a bit since my first days in a retractable.  I flew for a few decades out of a fairly busy Airport, I just looked and last year they had 262,113 operations.  So if you happen to go flying and get caught when all the flights schools and other weekend traffic was arriving you often ended up with a 5+ mile outbound Downwind followed by the 5+ mile inbound Final, all while you're down at Pattern Altitude. 

So now if I'm at a Non Towered field with no traffic, I'll drop the gear mid field like I was originally taught.  But if I'm on one of those low slow LOOOONG finals behind a 172, I'll hold the gear until I'm getting close to where I can glide to the Airport. 

In the engine out situation you described, I'm hoping that since not dropping the gear is not my first move for landing, may be a help if it ever happens to me.  And I also have to remember to tell any new (to me) CFI that I have very different procedures for dropping the gear or it flips them out!   

 

ADDED: And we all need to remember that Landing Assured with the gear UP is going to change drastically with the gear down if you really have no power.  So assuming I'm not going into some short farmers field, I think on 99.9% of the runways the threshold would be disappearing beneath the nose before I dropped the gear.

Edited August 22 by PeteMc

[Ragsf15e]

9 hours ago, Barneyw said:

When I purchased my aircraft the only operational documents I received was an original AFM from 1967 and a rather tatty old POH. I was given a copy of a SureCheck checklist for the M20F. These official documents gave me basic information on systems, normal operations, field and flight performance and precious little else. When I learnt to fly in 19xxxxx in a PA-28 I was given a generic book to pre-brief myself, given instruction on inter alia EFATO and PFL which served me as I moved between similar aircraft. I've learnt a lot about aviation since those innocent and heady days. When I was taught forced landings, for example it was attitude for 80kts 1000' abeam the upwind end of the field and flap as required to get it in. It got me thinking what is the forced landing pattern for a Mooney? What is best - abeam the field at 1000' gear up or maybe a high key / low key pattern gear down abeam the field. So I asked the so called experts and it was a case of asking 10 different people the same question and getting 10 different answers. (exaggerated for effect).

So I would like to open up it up to the floor so to speak and ask the following:

1. Did Mooney ever produce EP's for the pre J models?

2. Were later Mooney models provided with a more comprehensive POH including EP's?

3. Does anyone use SureCheck - are there any alternatives?

4. Has there ever been a published diagram of the recommended forced landing pattern?

5. What forced landing pattern do you use?  Has anyone gone to the trouble of drawing it up? What is taught?

Should be an interesting discussion and i apologise if it has been brought up before but I searched and couldn't find anything.

Cheers

Barney

For some of the EPs, a mid 80s J model poh is a good reference, but might not be exactly what you’re looking for.  You might need to use several J poh’s and make up your own C/E/F EP section.

personally, if enough altitude is available, I like to circle down from a high key when I practice.  Somewhere around 2000’-2500’ over the numbers, clean, best glide (or faster). Then circle down to low key (which is your abeam position) at approx 1000’, ~100mph (best glide for me).  Then you’ll just do your best commercial pilot power off 180.  Gear and flaps and slip and s turn and pull the prop rpm out (this is very effective extending glide) as appropriate to not be short, but not land halfway down the runway.  With practice and proper wind consideration, you can nail a 500’ target or better consistantly.

some will say that having 2500’ over the numbers is unlikely, but you can practice to intercept the same circling pattern from anywhere - low key (abeam), base, final, etc.

Edited August 22 by Ragsf15e

[AJ88V]

(Since no one else mentioned it…)

Don’t forget to pop the cabin door open. Suggest doing that earlier rather than later, especially if solo. Don’t want to be bobbling the plane around to reach over when you’re slow and close to the ground.

if you’ve never flown with the door open, don’t worry. There’s so much wind force on it in flight that you couldn’t open it if you wanted to.

[dkkim73]

On 8/22/2024 at 5:13 PM, Ragsf15e said:

personally, if enough altitude is available, I like to circle down from a high key when I practice.  Somewhere around 2000’-2500’ over the numbers, clean, best glide (or faster). Then circle down to low key (which is your abeam position) at approx 1000’, ~100mph (best glide for me).  Then you’ll just do your best commercial pilot power off 180.  Gear and flaps and slip and s turn and pull the prop rpm out (this is very effective extending glide) as appropriate to not be short, but not land halfway down the runway.  With practice and proper wind consideration, you can nail a 500’ target or better consistantly.

Here's a question that applies to that maneuver as well as an overhead recovery: Is choosing the fixed-distance markers (1000', "fat white bars") a better general reference than the threshold? We all learn (civilian) pulling power etc. abeam the #s in a standard power-available VFR pattern, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to always aim at the 1000-footers unless on a very short runway.  

 

[Ragsf15e]

41 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

Here's a question that applies to that maneuver as well as an overhead recovery: Is choosing the fixed-distance markers (1000', "fat white bars") a better general reference than the threshold? We all learn (civilian) pulling power etc. abeam the #s in a standard power-available VFR pattern, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to always aim at the 1000-footers unless on a very short runway.  

 

I do practice landing within the white bars because it’s a nice reference.  In my mind I pretend the beginning of it is the threshold.  However, you’re definitely right, if I’m in a real situation and glide down to a 5,000’+ runway, I’m not aiming for “brick one”.  1000’ down will be a perfect outcome and 2 feet short could be a disaster (lights? Mud? Threshold?). It’s worth trying to be precise though as a 2000’ runway or field requires landing pretty close to the beginning and not short.

[PT20J]

You don't want to aim for the numbers because if the wind changes (or you misjudge) and end up short, there is nothing you can do. But, if you aim at some point down the runway, you can slip or s-turn or deploy speed brakes if you have them or put the prop to hi rpm to increase drag.

[PeteMc]

Sorry if I missed it and someone else said it, but this is where an organized course like the Mooney Safety Foundation's PPP would be very helpful.  It has been a few years, but I remember that in other areas where the POH was a bit thin, they had created a "best practices" (my term) to fill in the blanks.  I'm sure they did this for the older models for Emergency Procedures too, I just have never paid much attention to what they were saying about the other models. 

 

Edited August 24 by PeteMc

[Ragsf15e]

44 minutes ago, PT20J said:

You don't want to aim for the numbers because if the wind changes (or you misjudge) and end up short, there is nothing you can do. But, if you aim at some point down the runway, you can slip or s-turn or deploy speed brakes if you have them or put the prop to hi rpm to increase drag.

As a reference, the Air Force made us put down emergency landing patterns between 500 feet to 1000 feet. You had to land within that range from the threshold to pass that maneuver in the T-6.

as @PT20J said, I would try to make myself slightly high energy on final, then use full flaps or slip to nail it exactly where I wanted. Wind analysis is very important.

Edited August 24 by Ragsf15e

[dkkim73]

11 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

As a reference, the Air Force made us put down emergency landing patterns between 500 feet to 1000 feet. You had to land within that range from the threshold to pass that maneuver in the T-6.

as @PT20J said, I would try to make myself slightly high energy on final, then use full flaps or slip to nail it exactly where I wanted. Wind analysis is very important.

I would think the T-6 could be made to bleed like stink if needed. Saw one in person yesterday, looks *solid*! 

Or do you mean the turbine version? (AT-6?) that's a cool plane, too, no doubt....

[Ragsf15e]

Just now, dkkim73 said:

I would think the T-6 could be made to bleed like stink if needed. Saw one in person yesterday, looks *solid*! 

Or do you mean the turbine version? (AT-6?) that's a cool plane, too, no doubt....

Well the USAF calls the “new” turbine version the T-6 Texan II.  You’d think it would be very draggy if needed, but the prop is full feathering and so it actually glides really well. Luckily full flaps is very effective and so is a slip.

[dkkim73]

Thanks for the clarification. I get fuzzy on the nomenclature... I got to fly a T-6 Texan II sim once, a while ago... consolation prize at the time, but I liked it and was going back to an Eagle squadron so couldn't complain.  That would be a fun personal plane, no doubt. 

I had been thinking of the old Navy-ish trainer with the radial. An instructor was doing upset training at my home drome recently in one of these for TBM drivers (there goes the neighborhood! ;)). 

 

 

[PT20J]

The original airplane was built by North American Aviation and designated AT-6 (except the Navy called it an SNJ-3 and the Canadians and Brits called it a Harvard). AT was the designation for Advanced Trainer. After WW II, they were sold quickly for cheap as surplus. But then the newly-formed US Air Force discovered that it needed a trainer and it bought back several hundred (at much higher prices) and awarded North American a contract to update them. These were designated T-6Gs.  I have a friend that owns a really nice T-6G and I have about 5 hours in the front seat. I've got another 5 or so hours in the back seat of an AT-6A mostly flown with an ex-Reno race pilot. If you think a Mooney stall is wicked - try a T-6 . 

[Will.iam]

So in my practicing for engine out landings initially i setup for 87 kias pull prop to min RPM’s and start turning toward my chosen landing site as i get closer i better be seeing my landing spot going down on my windscreen or I’m picking another site that’s closer as I’m not going to make that one. Once the site is at the bottom of the windscreen, i will start adding in flaps to keep it there. If it starts going up the screen i reduce some flaps. If it is going below the screen i increase flaps. A little change makes a big difference and is more quick to react than speed brakes. If the landing site is still going down i lower my nose to keep it in sight and accept the increase in airspeed if the speed starts getting close to max flap speed (never had that happen without latter realizing i lost too much altitude and have to pick a closer site or break off the practice and go around) be patient the corrections take time but i still have speed brakes or the prop i could push back to max rpm and that would act as extra drag too. I try not to use the prop as there is no guarantee that i will have a working governor when i have to do this for real. Finally when I’m over the threshold gear down if smooth ground or leave it up if going into bumpy terrain or corn field etc. pop the door handle and slow to landing speed flare land. 

[Barneyw]

These have been all interesting reads.

I think there is a lack of official guidance or standardised procedure here and the Mooney is not your PA-28 or C150/172 and requires a bit of thought. I don't think it's good enough to say just establish the glide and pick a spot and land. Furthermore, yes it is a judgement exercise but it is judgement within an envelope of known points eg 1000' abeam, high key/low key etc. This is why we practice circuits as mundane as they are perfecting circuits is key to a good approach and you can enter at any point of the circuit and know immediately what speed and what configuration you need to be to make it all work. 

The POH provides 2 speeds (actually 3) for glide - prop windmilling 105mph/92KIAS 10.3:1 glide and 100mph/87KIAS 12.7:1 glide. Then there's that paragraph see attached.

A few discussion points

Energy management on finals - is 100/87 held to the flare and how are you flaring eg one single flare and float or a two stage flare? 

Pulling the prop to full coarse - I have thought about this and have wondered if this is not a set up for an incident ie forgetting to put the prop back to full fine for a go around ...and before someone says but that's should be handled in your finals check well task (target) fixation can be a debilitating thing and given we don't know who our audience is with respect to experience the procedure needs to be qualified. I'm not saying this is an incorrect technique but there needs to be a caution attached.

PFLs are great on a 5000' strip, plenty of fat to play with. You guys must feel blessed and spoilt for choice of en route airstrips but not every forced landing is gong to be to a 5000' strip.

I guess I feel a bit underwhelmed mainly because I was expecting that as old as the Mooney is there would have been a well developed and tried and true method and patter.

Just for the record when I got my aircraft, without guidance and relying on my experience I attempted a PFL starting at 2500' at high key on the dead side abeam the keys the aircraft lost 1000' in the 180 to the opposite side I then put the (manual) gear down and flew the remaining circuit to a point where I had an overshoot and could have put the flaps down and felt confident I would have made it and then went around. Next time I will try 1000' abeam with the gear up and complete the circuit to see the difference. I can't remember if the gear was hard to put down at the slower speed but the whole Johnson Bar thing was a bit of a struggle until I got use to it. I'll try it again at slow speed at height.

Looking forward to further discussion.

Cheers