M20J fire extinguisher mount

[jetdriven]

In need of a fire extinguisher mount for our new interior. Mooney has a drawing number 940079-501 or -503 to do this but they won’t sell the kit that has it.  Does anyone have this drawing ? 

[PT20J]

On my 1994 J, it’s just a standard fire extinguisher bracket pop riveted to the spar through the plastic trim piece.

[Shadrach]

Just now, PT20J said:

On my 1994 J, it’s just a standard fire extinguisher bracket pop riveted to the spar through the plastic trim piece.

Is it physically riveted to the spar? As in the spar was drilled and the bracket riveted in place at the factory?

[PT20J]

16 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Is it physically riveted to the spar? As in the spar was drilled and the bracket riveted in place at the factory?

Yep. And, it’s a terrible location. Insccessible from the pilot’s seat. I have to get down on the floor behind the copilot’s seat to wrestle it out.

[Shadrach]

8 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Yep. 

Cool. I’ve never seen a set up like that. I wonder what year it was implemented. It’s a challenge in the older birds to find a suitable hard mount that does not interfere with cabin utilization. I imagine that retrofitting that set up to an earlier machine would require DER approval.

[jetdriven]

The factory pop riveted through a hole in the spar Web. Which is easy to do. I just need the drawing to have the authority to do it. I guess I could hire a DER, but it might be easier to do it this way.

 

[PT20J]

37 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The factory pop riveted through a hole in the spar Web. Which is easy to do. I just need the drawing to have the authority to do it. I guess I could hire a DER, but it might be easier to do it this way.

 

I’ve had good luck getting info from Frank Crawford. He doesn’t send complete drawings, but emails me enough of the drawing to make my IA comfortable.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

The factory pop riveted through a hole in the spar Web. Which is easy to do. I just need the drawing to have the authority to do it. I guess I could hire a DER, but it might be easier to do it this way.

 

So it's riveted through an existing hole?  That seems less ominous. 

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

So it's riveted through an existing hole?  That seems less ominous. 

I think it’s riveted through a hole you make in the spar, but if you’re gonna drill a hole in the spar, you need to have solid concrete evidence to stand on such as the actual factory drawing.

[PT20J]

I would give serious thought to mounting it somewhere else, if I could find a place. Normally I'd mount it to the pilot's seat, but that doesn't work with the articulated seats. It's really useless mounted in that recess on the front of the spar where it is darn near impossible to access.

[jetdriven]

I agree it’s a crappy location, but it’s better than all the other locations, which are worse unless we just don’t have a fire extinguisher, which you know,  We thought we might want one.  

[PeteMc]

7 hours ago, PT20J said:

On my 1994 J, it’s just a standard fire extinguisher bracket pop riveted to the spar through the plastic trim piece.

If I'm sitting in the Pilot's seat, where would the extinguisher be?  Trying to visualize where riveted into the spar.

 

[PT20J]

33 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

If I'm sitting in the Pilot's seat, where would the extinguisher be?  Trying to visualize where riveted into the spar.

 

Behind you. It would be beneath the legs of the passenger seated in the left rear seat. The trim panel beneath the seat cushions is straight, but the spar is swept forward on each side from the center splice creating a space between the trim and the spar and this allows for a recess that the extinguisher mostly fits in to.

[201Mooniac]

On my 1980 M20J, mine is mounted to the spar right in the middle, basically just above and behind the emergency gear system.  I can get it out of the bracket from my seated position though it isn't easy if the copilot seat is back.

[PT20J]

31 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

On my 1980 M20J, mine is mounted to the spar right in the middle, basically just above and behind the emergency gear system.  I can get it out of the bracket from my seated position though it isn't easy if the copilot seat is back.

On mine the controls to recline the rear seat backs are in the center and this is why I think Mooney put it on the left side.

[EricJ]

My airplane has rivnuts in the floor for a bracket between the seats just behind the trim wheel.  There's not been an extinguisher there since I've owned the airplane, but it's not a bad place to put one.

[jetdriven]

They stopped making  the a400.  The A344 won’t fit there 

[ArtVandelay]

On my 1980 M20J, mine is mounted to the spar right in the middle, basically just above and behind the emergency gear system.  I can get it out of the bracket from my seated position though it isn't easy if the copilot seat is back.

Ditto.

[201Mooniac]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Ditto.

Interesting, mine is mounted horizontally.  It seems easier to handle vertically like yours is.  Do rear seat passengers ever have any issue with the handle being that high?

[ArtVandelay]

Interesting, mine is mounted horizontally.  It seems easier to handle vertically like yours is.  Do rear seat passengers ever have any issue with the handle being that high?

I haven’t had 4 passengers, and with the handle pointing to left side it only be an issue for the pilot side rear passenger. If I did regularly have 4 I would probably try to find a spot in the copilot’s footwell.

[Ragsf15e]

23 hours ago, EricJ said:

My airplane has rivnuts in the floor for a bracket between the seats just behind the trim wheel.  There's not been an extinguisher there since I've owned the airplane, but it's not a bad place to put one.

Mine too but I think the later models have less room with the emergency gear extension there?

[EricJ]

13 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Mine too but I think the later models have less room with the emergency gear extension there?

That's a good point.    I keep forgetting about that. 

[Bolter]

What about a different form factor that you could store somewhere else?  Does it need to be aviation approved extinguisher?

I am thinking about things like this:  https://elementfire.com/

[Igor_U]

Dan,

In aviation we normally use Halon extinguishers or, lately ones with halon replacement like Halotron. Halon is ideal gas for closed spaces as it's colorless, efficient, non corrosive and leaves no residue. However it is not in production anymore due to ozone depletion and industry is trying to came with replacements like Halotron that Aircraft Spruce is selling. another replacement is Parker Aerospace's Verdagent but I didn't see it available commercially. I would look at that as what you want in the plane. Having said that, they are pricey these days undoubtedly due to Halon manufacturing restrictions.

As for Element, it seems interesting nd they claim being not messy, non-toxic, non-corrosive, environmentally friendly.  Looking at the video it's not colorless but more like a white fog so I wouldn't like that releasing in a cockpit. Also, it doesn't seem to be compressed gas so I'm doubtful it would extinguish larger fire (they say so indirectly), it almost reminds me of those flares used in traffic accidents and such.

I must say it's an interesting concept, though.

Regards,

 

3 hours ago, Bolter said:

What about a different form factor that you could store somewhere else?  Does it need to be aviation approved extinguisher?

I am thinking about things like this:  https://elementfire.com/

 

[A64Pilot]

Only detractor to Halotron is it’s roughly half as effective as Halon, so if you go that way get a bigger one than you would a Halon.

Even saying Halon isn’t exactly correct as there is I believe two major types used in aviation, 1211 and 1301 from memory? One is a liquid and the other a gas.

Ones we had in the Army were I believe the two types mixed, you had to weigh them to see if they were still serviceable, couldn’t use a pressure gauge as I think pressure remains the same until it’s all boiled off, like propane.

Just for Goodness sake don’t get a dry chemical one. Immediately on discharge two things happen. You can’t breathe or see.

Read about a boat fire years ago, use of the dry chemical drove them out of the boat and they couldn’t fight the fire and of course the boat burned.

As we had the same type of boat it hit home. Link below if anyone’s bored. An airplane is of course even worse than a boat, you can jump off of a boat, but have to ride the plane in.

 http://sandpyper.blogspot.com/