Bravo %HP

[Jetpilot86]

Anyone got the % HP for the various Bravo power settings?

 I don’t have a digital engine monitor, yet & and am braking my OH in. 
Thanks! 

[N201MKTurbo]

They are in your POH, aren’t they?

[LANCECASPER]

  On 11/19/2023 at 1:43 AM, Jetpilot86 said:

Anyone got the % HP for the various Bravo power settings?

 I don’t have a digital engine monitor, yet & and am braking my OH in. 
Thanks! 

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The Insight engine monitor you have on the right side of your panel will give you all of the information you need for CHT and EGT. @donkaye has more experience with breaking in TIO-540-AF1B engines than anyone else on here.

[donkaye, MCFI]

  On 11/19/2023 at 2:43 AM, LANCECASPER said:

The Insight engine monitor you have on the right side of your panel will give you all of the information you need for CHT and EGT. @donkaye has more experience with breaking in TIO-540-AF1B engines than anyone else on here.

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Per Lycoming their engine should be broken in in one flight.  75% power for the 1st hour; alternate 75%/65% for the 2nd hour; then Full power for the last ½ hour.  75% is 29"/2400 rpm; 65% 26"/2400 rpm.  Here's the spreadsheet I made up for breaking in engines.  I used my Bravo as an example.  I fill it out during the break-in so the time goes by rapidly.  I don't remember why I dropped down to 4,500 feet.  I think it was a request of ATC.   Usually I do the break-in at 4,000 feet.

 

 

[Jetpilot86]

Thanks! I’ve been running her too hard then. 

[Jetpilot86]

  On 11/19/2023 at 2:43 AM, LANCECASPER said:

The Insight engine monitor you have on the right side of your panel will give you all of the information you need for CHT and EGT. @donkaye has more experience with breaking in TIO-540-AF1B engines than anyone else on here.

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The only thing it doesn’t is where those % powers are, but Don just filled that blank in. 

[Pinecone]

Huh, there is no power chart????

I have never seen a POH without one.

[Fly Boomer]

  On 11/19/2023 at 3:15 AM, donkaye said:

Per Lycoming their engine should be broken in in one flight.  75% power for the 1st hour; alternate 75%/65% for the 2nd hour; then Full power for the last ½ hour.  75% is 29"/2400 rpm; 65% 26"/2400 rpm.  Here's the spreadsheet I made up for breaking in engines.  I used my Bravo as an example.  I fill it out during the break-in so the time goes by rapidly.  I don't remember why I dropped down to 4,500 feet.  I think it was a request of ATC.   Usually I do the break-in at 4,000 feet.

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I'm surprised there is essentially no change over the 2.5 hours.

[donkaye, MCFI]

I agree, that was surprising, but that engine lasted 1600 hours before the incident during the Annual in 2018 that caused me to decide to replace it rather than do a tear down, since it was within 3 years of TBO.

[Jetpilot86]

  On 11/19/2023 at 4:30 PM, Pinecone said:

Huh, there is no power chart????

I have never seen a POH without one.

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It has a power chart. The Bravo chart does not list %HP anywhere on those charts. Read somewhere that max continuous power is something like 91%, but nothing in the POH. 

[Jetpilot86]

  On 11/19/2023 at 3:15 AM, donkaye said:

Per Lycoming their engine should be broken in in one flight.  75% power for the 1st hour; alternate 75%/65% for the 2nd hour; then Full power for the last ½ hour.  75% is 29"/2400 rpm; 65% 26"/2400 rpm.  Here's the spreadsheet I made up for breaking in engines.  I used my Bravo as an example.  I fill it out during the break-in so the time goes by rapidly.  I don't remember why I dropped down to 4,500 feet.  I think it was a request of ATC.   Usually I do the break-in at 4,000 feet.

 

 

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Full as in 34”/2400 Peak TIT?  I assume not TO power. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

Full as in full: Throttle, Prop, Mixture, full in.

[donkaye, MCFI]

  On 11/19/2023 at 7:32 PM, Jetpilot86 said:

Full as in 34”/2400 Peak TIT?  I assume not TO power. 

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Here's the Lycoming Service Instructions for engine Break-in.

Lycoming SI1427B Engine Break-in.pdfFetching info...

[donkaye, MCFI]

  On 11/19/2023 at 7:24 PM, Jetpilot86 said:

It has a power chart. The Bravo chart does not list %HP anywhere on those charts. Read somewhere that max continuous power is something like 91%, but nothing in the POH. 

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The POH doesn't, but the Lycoming Manual that came with (or should have come with) the plane does have it.  I've attached the relevant information from the Manual.  it covers the TIO-540-AF1A Engine that is the same as the 1B with oil injection.

20231119_lb Find Actual Horsepower From Altitude, R.P.M., Manifo.pdfFetching info...

[Jetpilot86]

  On 11/19/2023 at 8:46 PM, donkaye said:

The POH doesn't, but the Lycoming Manual that came with (or should have come with) the plane does have it.  I've attached the relevant information from the Manual.  it covers the TIO-540-AF1A Engine that is the same as the 1B with oil injection.

20231119_lb Find Actual Horsepower From Altitude, R.P.M., Manifo.pdf 498.71 kB · 5 downloads

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I remember seeing that chart, just didn’t interpolate. Thanks! 

[Jetpilot86]

  On 11/19/2023 at 8:39 PM, donkaye said:

Here's the Lycoming Service Instructions for engine Break-in.

Lycoming SI1427B Engine Break-in.pdf 42.85 kB · 2 downloads

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Been running at 11-12k since 75% power is available there still. I’ll probably run through that whole thing again when I can fly next just to make sure it’s been done right at least once. I’ve got about 5 hours on it since picking it up and might have burned .25qt of oil. I’m guessing I’m pretty much done with break in. Interestingly, 3 different mechanics have been fine with mineral oil the first 25 hours, despite what SB1014M says. 

[Shadrach]

  On 11/19/2023 at 11:00 PM, Jetpilot86 said:

Been running at 11-12k since 75% power is available there still. 

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Why brake in at 12,000?  My N/A engine will make 77% at 10,000 according tho the POH, but I would not run a break-in procedure up there because I want maximum dense air for cooling. I have broken in a number of cylinders/engines over the years. I run as low as is practicable to keep CHTs as cool as possible.

[Jetpilot86]

  On 11/20/2023 at 1:46 AM, Shadrach said:

Why brake in at 12,000?  My N/A engine will make 77% at 10,000 according tho the POH, but I would not run a brake in procedure up there because I want maximum dense air for cooling. I have broken in a number of cylinders/engines over the years. I run as low as is practicable to keep CHTs as cool as possible.

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Well, the flippant answer is because I could. In reality, that and the fact I wanted to get from A-B as fast as I could those days, despite being ignorant of the entire process being new at it, and quite likely the last time. 
 

[LANCECASPER]

  On 11/19/2023 at 11:00 PM, Jetpilot86 said:

Been running at 11-12k since 75% power is available there still. I’ll probably run through that whole thing again when I can fly next just to make sure it’s been done right at least once. I’ve got about 5 hours on it since picking it up and might have burned .25qt of oil. I’m guessing I’m pretty much done with break in. Interestingly, 3 different mechanics have been fine with mineral oil the first 25 hours, despite what SB1014M says. 

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But Lycoming is not ok with mineral oil on the TIO-540-AF1B engine. They say, "All Lycoming turbocharged engines must be broken in with ashless dispersant oil only"

https://www.lycoming.com/content/hard-facts-about-engine-break

[Jetpilot86]

  On 11/20/2023 at 6:50 AM, LANCECASPER said:

But Lycoming is not ok with mineral oil on the TIO-540-AF1B engine. They say, "All Lycoming turbocharged engines must be broken in with ashless dispersant oil only"

https://www.lycoming.com/content/hard-facts-about-engine-break

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I am aware of that article, quoted it to 3 different mechanics, 1 a veteran Mooney mechanic and got the same response each time. <shrugs>

[Shadrach]

  On 11/20/2023 at 12:28 PM, Jetpilot86 said:

I am aware of that article, quoted it to 3 different mechanics, 1 a veteran Mooney mechanic and got the same response each time. <shrugs>

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I’ve done a fair amount of research in this area. Not all manufacturers agree. For instance RAM recommends all their engines be broken in using mineral oil. Lycoming goes to great lengths to explain the reasons why non-dispersant oils are best for cylinder break-in but says nothing as to why those reasons are not valid when a turbo is attached.

The most compelling reason to follow the Mamufacture‘s recommendation is that they are the ones who pay the warranty. If there’s a claim they are going to ask about the break-in procedure. Discussion about why the procedure was not followed is not a conversation I would look forward to.

[Jetpilot86]

  On 11/20/2023 at 12:45 PM, Shadrach said:

I’ve done a fair amount of research in this area. Not all manufacturers agree. For instance RAM recommends all their engines be broken in using mineral oil. Lycoming goes to great lengths to explain the reasons why non-dispersant oils are best for cylinder break-in but says nothing as to why those reasons are not valid when a turbo is attached.

The most compelling reason to follow the Mamufacture‘s recommendation is that they are the ones who pay the warranty. If there’s a claim they are going to ask about the break-in procedure. Discussion about why the procedure was not followed is not a conversation I would look forward to.

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I don’t disagree. I asked in prebuy, the Mooney Mechanic Veteran A&P had no issues, at that point the engine had 10 hours on that oil. I’m about 15 hours from the 50 hour mark. Guess I’ll be making some more phone calls. 

[LANCECASPER]

  On 11/20/2023 at 6:24 PM, Jetpilot86 said:

I don’t disagree. I asked in prebuy, the Mooney Mechanic Veteran A&P had no issues, at that point the engine had 10 hours on that oil. I’m about 15 hours from the 50 hour mark. Guess I’ll be making some more phone calls. 

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Lycoming specifies 25 hour oil changes, not 50,  on the TIO-540-AF1B engine on the Bravo.

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/attachments/SB480F%20Oil%20ServicingMetallic%20Solids%20Identification%20After%20Oil%20Servicing%20and%20Associated%20Corrective%20Action.pdf

 

The biggest issue with this engine is heat. The oil that cools the heads goes very close past the "hot section" (the exhaust valve guides) to wick away the heat from that area into the oil. Lycoming mentioned in a Seminar roughly 25 years ago at a Mooney Homecoming in Kerrville that the tests that they had run on the oil shows that the viscosity was not there as the oil went a few hours past the 25 hour mark. They attributed it to heat in the Bravo conversion and made it clear to those present that the only chance that the engine had to make it to TBO was to change the oil every 25 hours. They put this in Lycoming Service Bulletin 480A and Mooney referenced that in the Bravo Maintenance Manual.  SB-480F, linked above still calls for 25 hour oil changes in that engine. 

[Shadrach]

  On 11/20/2023 at 6:24 PM, Jetpilot86 said:

I don’t disagree. I asked in prebuy, the Mooney Mechanic Veteran A&P had no issues, at that point the engine had 10 hours on that oil. I’m about 15 hours from the 50 hour mark. Guess I’ll be making some more phone calls. 

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Best to change frequently during the during the break in period. I did my first change at 10hrs, then 25hrs and then regular 50ish (sometimes less) hour intervals.  There were no issues that would have prevented those initial changes from being extended, but I had to change the oil to know that.  It's good to be conservative with oil intervals. Once the engine has a history of good dispatch reliability and is running consistently, pushing the interval a bit every once in a while if away from home, is not likely to make much difference.  

Your particular engine model has a history of being a thorn in the Lycoming warranty dept's backside.  My guess is that the reduced interval is part of a kitchen sink approach to ensure the aircraft has the highest performing oil and also (cynically speaking) to provide an additional means of denying warranty claims.  In the whole scheme of things 50hrs is pretty lousy for oil service life, 25hrs just seems wasteful given what we're able to achieve in other applications.  

Don't feel like folks are piling up on you. On the whole, folks on this forum want to help new owners avoid pitfalls. Your engine is somewhat high strung by aviation standards and is an expensive piece to engage in "experimental" maintenance practices/intervals.

 

[Jetpilot86]

  On 11/20/2023 at 8:08 PM, Shadrach said:

Best to change frequently during the during the break in period. I did my first change at 10hrs, then 25hrs and then regular 50ish (sometimes less) hour intervals.  There were no issues that would have prevented those initial changes from being extended, but I had to change the oil to know that.  It's good to be conservative with oil intervals. Once the engine has a history of good dispatch reliability and is running consistently, pushing the interval a bit every once in a while if away from home, is not likely to make much difference.  

Your particular engine model has a history of being a thorn in the Lycoming warranty dept's backside.  My guess is that the reduced interval is part of a kitchen sink approach to ensure the aircraft has the highest performing oil and also (cynically speaking) to provide an additional means of denying warranty claims.  In the whole scheme of things 50hrs is pretty lousy for oil service life, 25hrs just seems wasteful given what we're able to achieve in other applications.  

Don't feel like folks are piling up on you. On the whole, folks on this forum want to help new owners avoid pitfalls. Your engine is somewhat high strung by aviation standards and is an expensive piece to engage in "experimental" maintenance practices/intervals.

 

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No worries, I miss read my notes. It’s 25 hours in them, due in about 10 hours. I’ve become well aware what high strung thoroughbreds the Bravo’s are. Not going to be able to fly her for a few weeks and I’ve been working from memory, a bad one apparently, on some of the posts.