MAPA Email List

[jetdriven]

d p

[kris_adams]

Wow, all of this makes me miss the old "grumman gang" of 10 years ago.  I've never joined MAPA and I'm struggling finding any motivation to join.

A non-profit owners group that is committed to the brand and the ownership group sure sounds more appealing than what we have.  I think people will give (in goods, services, or cash) much more to an organization they care about then could possibly be collected in dues.

Just my thoughts.  Being a "non-member" I know my input doesn't really seem very valued...at least I don't have to worry about being deleted

Kris

[mooneyflyer]

 

TREY HUGHES wrote this on the MAPA List. My response and history of it follow at the bottom of the post.

_____________________________________________________

Last week when I posted the news about Beechcraft's bankruptcy, I didn't mean to start a fire storm or a MAPA vs. ABS battle.  I was only trying to point out how the current economic woes are also affecting the "big guys"

and not just our little Texas Hill Country aircraft manufacturer.  For what it's worth, we have good friends at ABS both in their organization and in their membership.  Several former Mooney owners have moved "up" to 6 seats or 2 engines and continue to maintain membership in both organizations.  The truth is the ABS was the prototype for MAPA and we owe a lot of our early history to that organization as they were the blueprint for what we grew into.  The MAPASF was patterned directly from the same operation in the American Bonanza Society.  We are not adversaries but complementary entities interested in the betterment of the ownership experience for our respective aircraft brands.

 Unfortunately, a couple of critical voices took acceptation to my post and used it as an opportunity to poke the association.  As it turns out, the loudest were not even members of MAPA - don't ask how that happened, but we fixed the loophole in our web server this weekend.  But member or not is not the real problem for me.  It's this vague "they are better then you" reference.

 Anyone who reads the MAPA LOG, or who pays attention to the MAPA Chat List knows that we are always asking for suggestions on how to make this association and your experience better.  This includes the website and the magazine.  Simply saying that the ABS website and magazine is better then the MAPA website and magazine does nothing for me.  Tell me how.  What is better?  Not being a mind reader, I can't divine through telepathy what "better" means.  We have long recognized that our website is underutilized.

We have been - very slowly - making changes there, but we need the input from you the users.

 After sitting in the big chair for the past 10-plus years I have long ago lost my innocence.  I have developed a thick skin and can take critical suggestions.  These organizations are only as good as their members.  That is true for ABS and for MAPA.  Want your Mooney association to be better?

Get involved.  Send me or Lela your thoughts on what will make your membership better.  How can we improve the magazine?  Submit an article.

While we may not be able to make every suggestions become reality, we do listen and we do understand that we can not survive without you.  This is your organization; Lela and I are only temporary custodians.

 Regards, Trey Hughes

_____________________________________________________

1) The recurring theme of how to improve MAPA is for the members to GET INVOLVED.  Almost 2 years ago, I offered to supply articles that were Mooney-specific to MAPA.  Almost everyone agrees the MAPA LOG has become "thin".  Trey said he had no space for the articles.

2) Several members offered to provide additional Mooney-specific presentations at the Convention to draw more people.  This has been done at VMG fly-ins where there has been a combination of both "Pilot" and "Non-Pilot" seminars to please both audiences.  Trey said "No".  Members have also been "begging" for the convention to move around the country.

3) The website is stale.  The only things that change (or seem to) are the PDF of the MAPA LOG each month, and the CALENDAR OF EVENTS.  I offer NOW to redesign the website, add new Mooney articles to it from expert authors and members, put monthly Mooney-specific content on the site, and get more Mooney parts and service providers on the site, plus other stuff that members come up with.  The articles would include specifics on flying issues associated with our Mooneys, maintenance issues associated with models, and even perhaps a Mooney Wiki that includes expert content on everything Mooney.  Not the "off topic" stuff that posts sometime evolve to.

The above 3 offers for Volunteer work (ie, NO COST to MAPA) are still current and valid.  They address a "thin" MAPA LOG, a convention that's highlighted by the social interaction and an ice cream social with more Mooney-specific presentations, and a revamped website.  All for member volunteers.

These ideas and others were rejected by Director Hughes a few years ago, and are re-volunteered here again.  I dropped MAPA about a year and a half ago, but still care.  Anybody else want to volunteer to these or other efforts?

Phil

 

 

[Becca]

Quote: mooneyflyer

 

TREY HUGHES wrote this on the MAPA List. My response and history of it follow at the bottom of the post.

_____________________________________________________

Last week when I posted the news about Beechcraft's bankruptcy, I didn't mean to start a fire storm or a MAPA vs. ABS battle.  I was only trying to point out how the current economic woes are also affecting the "big guys"

and not just our little Texas Hill Country aircraft manufacturer.  For what it's worth, we have good friends at ABS both in their organization and in their membership.  Several former Mooney owners have moved "up" to 6 seats or 2 engines and continue to maintain membership in both organizations.  The truth is the ABS was the prototype for MAPA and we owe a lot of our early history to that organization as they were the blueprint for what we grew into.  The MAPASF was patterned directly from the same operation in the American Bonanza Society.  We are not adversaries but complementary entities interested in the betterment of the ownership experience for our respective aircraft brands.

 Unfortunately, a couple of critical voices took acceptation to my post and used it as an opportunity to poke the association.  As it turns out, the loudest were not even members of MAPA - don't ask how that happened, but we fixed the loophole in our web server this weekend.  But member or not is not the real problem for me.  It's this vague "they are better then you" reference.

 Anyone who reads the MAPA LOG, or who pays attention to the MAPA Chat List knows that we are always asking for suggestions on how to make this association and your experience better.  This includes the website and the magazine.  Simply saying that the ABS website and magazine is better then the MAPA website and magazine does nothing for me.  Tell me how.  What is better?  Not being a mind reader, I can't divine through telepathy what "better" means.  We have long recognized that our website is underutilized.

We have been - very slowly - making changes there, but we need the input from you the users.

 After sitting in the big chair for the past 10-plus years I have long ago lost my innocence.  I have developed a thick skin and can take critical suggestions.  These organizations are only as good as their members.  That is true for ABS and for MAPA.  Want your Mooney association to be better?

Get involved.  Send me or Lela your thoughts on what will make your membership better.  How can we improve the magazine?  Submit an article.

While we may not be able to make every suggestions become reality, we do listen and we do understand that we can not survive without you.  This is your organization; Lela and I are only temporary custodians.

 Regards, Trey Hughes

_____________________________________________________

1) The recurring theme of how to improve MAPA is for the members to GET INVOLVED.  Almost 2 years ago, I offered to supply articles that were Mooney-specific to MAPA.  Almost everyone agrees the MAPA LOG has become "thin".  Trey said he had no space for the articles.

2) Several members offered to provide additional Mooney-specific presentations at the Convention to draw more people.  This has been done at VMG fly-ins where there has been a combination of both "Pilot" and "Non-Pilot" seminars to please both audiences.  Trey said "No".  Members have also been "begging" for the convention to move around the country.

3) The website is stale.  The only things that change (or seem to) are the PDF of the MAPA LOG each month, and the CALENDAR OF EVENTS.  I offer NOW to redesign the website, add new Mooney articles to it from expert authors and members, put monthly Mooney-specific content on the site, and get more Mooney parts and service providers on the site, plus other stuff that members come up with.  The articles would include specifics on flying issues associated with our Mooneys, maintenance issues associated with models, and even perhaps a Mooney Wiki that includes expert content on everything Mooney.  Not the "off topic" stuff that posts sometime evolve to.

The above 3 offers for Volunteer work (ie, NO COST to MAPA) are still current and valid.  They address a "thin" MAPA LOG, a convention that's highlighted by the social interaction and an ice cream social with more Mooney-specific presentations, and a revamped website.  All for member volunteers.

These ideas and others were rejected by Director Hughes a few years ago, and are re-volunteered here again.  I dropped MAPA about a year and a half ago, but still care.  Anybody else want to volunteer to these or other efforts?

Phil

 

 

[mooneyflyer]

There are the following Mooney lists/forums: (that I know about).  1) Mooneyspace, 2) MAPAList, 3) Mooney List, 4) Mooney LongBody List, 5) Mooney Tech List.  I personally read them all.  Although I think it would be nice if Trey participated here, he seems more comfortable on the other lists.  What I want is for him to respond to my positive and constructive volunteer efforts that he says he wants.

[John Pleisse]

Quote: jetdriven

.

[Hank]

Phil--

I only keep up with the MAPA List and the Tech List. Have you posted your desire to volunteer on the MAPA List? You know, the only one with a link on the main website, that I thought for a long time was the only MAPA board? I've not seen anything there, and I think your articles and efforts would be nice to read/have and should be welcome.

Didn't you have an article or two in the Log a couple of years ago? From what I remember, it was well written, thorough and pleasant reading. More articles like that would be nice! Anything would make a nice addition to Trey's monthly editorial, and the standard columns by Dr. Bob, the Insurance Guy, the lawyer and the accident review. Here lately, we're doing good to get these articles plus one more about anything, including Jimmy G's periodic valuation efforts.

Trey, if you're monitoring, can you please put more content into the Log??? Yes, I've been a member since the month I started flying my Mooney, July 2007. [bought her on 6/26/07]

Also, some method to sign up for a PPP without photocopying a page out of the magazine and faxing it in would be great! You know, that I can use during the 128 hours each week that no one is in the MAPA office to answer the phone, or when Lela is busy talking to/working for someone else?

[Greg_D]

Phil,

If Trey can't pick up a copy of the ABS magazine and browse over to their web site and see the differences between those offereings and what MAPA provides, they are in real trouble at MAPA.  What's even more concerning is knowing that folks like you have offered to provide the participation he claims is lacking and the reason for their problems.  Others have made similar offers with the same reply.  It seems like all he does is offer excuse after excuse.  We can't attend Sun N Fun because.... We can't attend Osh Kosh becase..... We can't put out a better magazine because......  Our web site is never updated becasue......  We can't hold the convention anywhere but the souttwest because..... But hey, our Ice Cream Social is the BEST.

One thing seems pretty certain: he's out of touch with all but the inner circle of membership at MAPA.  The question is why.  Is it beacuse he chooses to be?  Or because he lacks the energy to do what's needed?  Making excuses is a very low energy endeavour.

[johnggreen]

I was just doing a tally here.  It seems that comments pro/con MAPA are running about  4 to 1 con.  So, I am somewhat shocked that anyone could suggest with a straight face that MAPA buying out Mooneyspace would be a positive for the Mooney community.  Mooneyspace is valuable.  There is a serious exchange of valuable thought 90% of the time on both pilotage questions and maintenance issues.

With the demise of MAC, and it has demised regardless of what MAPA touts, we need each other badly.

I don't care to bash Trey or MAPA, I have been a member since I purchased my Bravo seven years ago if memory serves me right.  That being said, I can't really justify the membership.  The benefits have been minimal at best and nothing compared to what I have gleaned from Mooneyspace.  Many of you should take that as a compliment.

So who would want to trade the success of Mooneyspace for the mediocrity of MAPA's email site or support?  Not I.

Jgreen

 

[John Pleisse]

Not a lot of constructive criticism, just a lot of whining. Again, people are more apt to complain than compliment. Trey and Leila have devoted many years to MAPA and while the internet has run circles around print media, MAPA is established and can offer more. This has been scathing, but possibly helpful? Constructive ideas?

[danb35]

Quote: Greg_D

I sent Trey a note with some very consrtuctive critisim after he emailed and asked if I was a MAPA member.  I never heard back from him, but got an auto-generated mesaage that I had been disenrolled from the mail list.

[Greg_D]

Quote: N4352H

Not a lot of constructive criticism, just a lot of whining. Again, people are more apt to complain than compliment. Trey and Leila have devoted many years to MAPA and while the internet has run circles around print media, MAPA is established and can offer more. This has been scathing, but possibly helpful? Constructive ideas?

[Greg_D]

Quote: danb35

So you weren't a MAPA member, shouldn't have been on the list (the list is mentioned specifically on the MAPA home page as a members-only area), and were removed because you weren't a member.  Just like if you're not an AOPA member, you shouldn't have access to their forums.  But that doesn't sound like nearly a good a story as "I disagreed with Trey, so he booted me from the list."

[knute]

I've been a MAPA member since 2006 when I purchased my E, and will continue to be for the forseeable future.  An annual membership that costs as much as a couple of gallons of avgas is cheap at the price for an organization that promotes Mooney-related knowledge,provides a monthly magazine, and offers another collaborative haven for Mooney owners and specialists.

Having said that, I do think MAPA needs to change to survive.  If MAPA lacks in-house web experience, surely there are qualified webmasters from among our ranks that can assist? An updated and comprehensive calendar would go a long way towards projecting vitality, and the classifieds are underutilized.

I was among those that attended the last MAPA homecoming, and was frustrated that in spite of flying all the way to the mother ship at Kerrville from Northern California, it was decided that a tour of a closed factory would send the wrong message, so there was no contact with or even presentations by anyone from Mooney.  (We very much enjoyed hearing Bill Wheat, but he doesn't work for Mooney anymore).  Instead of having the ice cream social at the hotel, I would have preferred to have the social mixer at the airport walking the line of aircraft that flew in and talking to other owners about mods & maintenance.

I'm almost wondering if the model of a "national" fly-in conference even works anymore; there was not nearly enough compelling content to be worth the expense of flying that far to attend.  Some of the content was downright baffling, like the presentation from Aero Resources that was much more about a website directory interface they might be building than it was about the mooney mods they produce.  I would rather spend my travel budget on Oshkosh, but MAPA doesn't even have a presence there anymore.  I understand that financial concerns are one of the core problems, but it's chicken and egg- if there is no representation at the big events, the organization keeps losing vitality. 

I don't know the vagaries of the booth restrictions at Oshkosh, but wouldn't it be great if there could be a collaborative Mooney booth with representation by MAPA, Mooney, Mooney Service Centers, Mooney Ambassadors, VMG, Mooneyspace, etc- none of those groups should be in competition, and they more pilots they meet, the better.  Heck, I'd even be willing to chip in towards the cost of a booth to make that possible, as long as there was space for a lemonade cooler and some chairs so that we could drop in and meet other Mooney pilots.

I look to an organization like MAPA for several things:  information on maintenance or other mooney (or general flying) issues, and also as an advocacy group to help communicate effectively with Mooney on behalf of owners.  I do read the magazine, and I have made purchases influenced by advertisements in the MAPA LOG.

This same struggle of "what does the organization provide to ME" is not unique to MAPA; I've seen it also with the BMW car club of America, and countless other organizations I'm involved in.  Even AOPA and EAA don't make everybody happy by a longshot.  In spite of MAPA being a "for profit" entity, they do perform a service that is useful and beneficial to us as Mooney owners, and I would challenge anyone who is not happy with the content of the MAPA Log to write an article and get involved.  If one of the concerns is that MAPA is not member-driven, maybe the members should do more to drive it.  If Trey isn't receptive to that, _then_ we have a problem, but I do believe Trey is sincere in his efforts to keep MAPA running and provide as much useful content as possible; he just needs some help in these challenging times for aviation in general.

I have no plans at present to attend the next MAPA convention, but it would make me sad if it died out.

[mooneyflyer]

Quote: N4352H

Not a lot of constructive criticism, just a lot of whining. Again, people are more apt to complain than compliment. Trey and Leila have devoted many years to MAPA and while the internet has run circles around print media, MAPA is established and can offer more. This has been scathing, but possibly helpful? Constructive ideas?

[MagicCarpet]

I just joined this site. My first post.  I've been a guest reader for a bit. 

I've had my 1967 M20F since 2002.  Fixed it up with everything to make it fast.  Lopresti Cowl, all the LASAR mods.  I take care of it to my specs.  Adequate avionics for manual hard-IFR (KLN-94, no autopilot).  I do my own annuals and maintenance with IA supervision.  157kts true, always.  Flown 1000 hours on it myself.  Love my bird.  Quite obsessed with it actually. Yes, a Mooniac.

I was a MAPA member a long time ago too.  My bird won best of class at MAPA in 2003 fly-in at Kerrville.

Stayed away from MOA too.  Too creepy.

Been happy snooping around on my own for Mooney stuff.  Although, a new grass roots thing might be cool.  The folks at LASAR are great, been buying stuff from them for along time.

Carter
6460Q

 

[fantom]

I've been a MAPA member since 1993, have attended 5 conventions, With the one in Las Vegas being the best, and have observed MAPA change over the years. I count Trey and Lela as friends and some might consider me one of the good old' boys! But I'm not.

Let's face it, MAPA has gotten stale, needs some new blood and fresh ideas, like some of those being offered here.  It was my hope that when MooneySpace began that maybe Mooney Talk and the MAPA list would all condense to it. Old ways and old habits die hard.

The various fly in clubs, the vintage groups, the lunch group here in FL should, IMO, all come under the banner of a member owned, not for profit, single entity, with MAPA being the most logical one. Volunteers, light moderation to stop all the political and inside BS, and no direct financial consideration to the factory, insurance companies, vendors, or anyone else. They could pay to advertise all they want.

The ABS clinics, their magazine, the Cezzna Pilots Association, and others put us to shame IMHO. With the factory on life support, production at a halt, parts getting hard to find, general aviation shrinking, and many of the existing Mooney guru's near retirement, we MUST get new, younger, more enerigic people directly involved......it's our life stream and our only long term hope for a vibrant Mooney community.

That may cost us $100 bucks a year, but it would be money very well invested!

[jetdriven]

I know between all of us, we have enough photos, and knowledge to write enough articles to keep Trey busy forever.   For example, articles about "how to" such as re-do the interior plastic.

[Greg_D]

Quote: fantom

I've been a MAPA member since 1993, have attended 5 conventions, With the one in Las Vegas being the best, and have observed MAPA change over the years. I count Trey and Lela as friends and some might consider me one of the good old' boys! But I'm not.

Let's face it, MAPA has gotten stale, needs some new blood and fresh ideas, like some of those being offered here.  It was my hope that when MooneySpace began that maybe Mooney Talk and the MAPA list would all condense to it. Old ways and old habits die hard.

The various fly in clubs, the vintage groups, the lunch group here in FL should, IMO, all come under the banner of a member owned, not for profit, single entity, with MAPA being the most logical one. Volunteers, light moderation to stop all the political and inside BS, and no direct financial consideration to the factory, insurance companies, vendors, or anyone else. They could pay to advertise all they want.

The ABS clinics, their magazine, the Cezzna Pilots Association, and others put us to shame IMHO. With the factory on life support, production at a halt, parts getting hard to find, general aviation shrinking, and many of the existing Mooney guru's near retirement, we MUST get new, younger, more enerigic people directly involved......it's our life stream and our only long term hope for a vibrant Mooney community.

That may cost us $100 bucks a year, but it would be money very well invested!

[mooneyflyer]

Quote: Greg_D

Gary,

Interesting that your comments and feelings as a perceived "good ole boy" match up with the majority that have posted here.  If Trey is a friend, maybe you can get him to take an objective look at things in the hope that he will turn things around.