Insurance Quotes

[Marc_B]

Every time I see this thread I just keep seeing the title Insurance "Quotations" in my head!  

"Insurance is like marriage. You just pay, pay, pay, and get nothing back." - Al Bundy.

"I hit the gym today, but drove away cause I don't have car insurance." - Maxine.

"Fun is like life insurance.  The older you get, the more it costs."

"What does insurance share in common with a parachute?  If it can't be used the first time, it's useless."

 

Alright, carry on with the serious stuff...

[A64Pilot]

32 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

• Diesel fuel costs more

 

Diesel fuel has a higher heat value per unit of volume. On a BTU/dollar basis it is cheaper and why it is the fuel of choice for large vehicle fleet operations.

No choice, there haven’t been heavy duty spark ignition engines for a very long time, and I’m pretty sure the GM big block is dead as is the Ford V10, dead as in no longer manufactured, I think.

The additional fuel cost wipes out the increase efficiency of a Diesel, excepting a couple of glaring problems which are no charge infrastructure and the fact that there just isn’t enough electricity to pull it off I think EV OTR trucks would be a hit. The new Diesels from what I have read are much more expensive to keep on the road than the older ones, DEF cost is insignificant but the EGR cooler, DOC, DPE, DEF system are all emissions add ons and everything breaks of course so now you have a bunch of additional systems you didn’t used to have. It will I hope go the way cars did, that is become even more reliable than ever before, and maybe the new ones are but the ones a few years old aren’t.

Look up reliability issue of the popular Ford Powerstroke engines, the Navistar ones, which until recently they all were for an example.

But right now EV OTR trucks are about as likely as a Mr. Fusion.

So far as an aircraft Diesel it’s been problematic to say the least, I think it was twenty years ago when Maule certified a Diesel, then the engine went away so all that work and money was a wright off.

About the same time we had a dealer, Africair that was installing STC’d Diesels in I think 172’s as fast as they could and selling them in Africa, demand greatly exceeded supply, but I think the engine supply dried up, maybe it was the same engine in the Maule?

I didn’t like the Maule I flew it was heavy and rougher and had a turbine like lag, but it’s the only Diesel I’ve flown. In places where there is no Avgas it would have sold as fast as Maule could build them I’m sure.

Back then there was no overhaul, just buy new was your only option. I know Continental was developing one, what happened to it? I think maybe there was a whole line maybe from I think 150 to 300 HP maybe? Or maybe not I’m not sure.

It can’t be that hard, it has to be the market won’t support the costs is my guess, a lot of talk, but would we pop 75 to 100K for one? It might be even more is my suspicion. Everything from the firewall forward would have to be replaced and that gets expensive even to replace everything for a 200 HP Lycoming, and every aircraft model would be different unless you could keep the same engine mount.

Maybe I’m just getting old but I don’t see putting new Diesels in our 40 yr old airplanes as being cost effective, and I don’t think any Diesel can replace the big twin turbo Continentals or the Lycoming in a Bravo can they?

[Fly Boomer]

27 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

But right now EV OTR trucks are about as likely as a Mr. Fusion.

Like the car, it probably can't do everything a gas vehicle can do in all territories and on all routes.  That said, this article (a year old) says Pepsico planned to order 100.  I have read other articles regarding other divisions of Pepsico using them.

[MooneyMitch]

On 1/14/2024 at 9:21 PM, Skates97 said:

Back on the original topic of insurance quotes, this has gotten so far off the rails I can't remember if I mentioned my Dec 2023 renewal. Same coverage as 2022, same premium. Maybe the market is stabilizing a little? No new ratings, flew 155 hours, inching close to 1000 total hours.

Saw you taxing out and departing L52 Sunday.  Your D is spectacular!  Have fun.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

Like the car, it probably can't do everything a gas vehicle can do in all territories and on all routes.  That said, this article (a year old) says Pepsico planned to order 100.  I have read other articles regarding other divisions of Pepsico using them.

Tesla is running their own small fleet driving between I think the battery plant in Nevada and the car factory in California, and apparently Pepsico is their launch customer, I learned this on this site the other day.

I think the State of California gave Pepsico a rather large grant to pay for the trucks.

Seems 15.4 Million from California and $40,000 per truck from the Feds

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/16/pepsico-is-using-36-tesla-semis-in-its-fleet-and-is-upgrading-facilities-for-more-in-2023-exec-says.html

Since then I’ve done a little reading, I believe these are prototypes and Tesla is doing the smart thing and putting miles on them to see what’s breaking where the problems are etc and hopefully won’t launch a lemon.

My suspicion is they may not all be identical. I read they can only produce three per week telling me that they are prototypes

I’d suspect his Truck is coming and I’d suspect initially maybe on limited routes until the charging infrastructure is built and then maybe we will see an expansion, but assuming the thing is reliable it should be a fraction of the cost to “fuel” so savings ought to be substantial, but surely any change over would take years, limited I assume by available electricity.

Lots of assuming

However I can only imagine the amount of power that’s going to be required to charge them, in theory a car Supercharger can deliver 250,000 W. Assuming a house has a 100 amp panel as I think most do, then 1 Tesla car can pull as much power as 11 houses IF the house is maxed out, which you know they aren’t.

So if it takes 250,000 W to rapidly charge a 5,000 lb automobile how much will it take to charge an 80,0000 lb truck?

I say 250,000W in theory because the Superchargers are 150,000 and 250,000 W but a car can only pull the max for a very short time, as the battery charges the charge acceptance rate decreases, but I’d guess a truck could pull as much as ten cars? I’m just guessing of course.

I’ve read the 500 mile range truck battery will be between 850 and 900 KWH, by comparison my car has Tesla’s smallest battery at 50 KWH, so the truck batteries capacity will be 17.5 times my cars?

 

[Hank]

18 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I’ve read the 500 mile range truck battery will be between 850 and 900 KWH, by comparison my car has Tesla’s smallest battery at 50 KWH, so the truck batteries capacity will be 17.5 times my cars?

So what will that monster truck battery weigh, compared to 100 gal of diesel?

If your car battery weighs 1000 lb, will the truck battery weigh 17,500 lb? Talk about payload taking a hit! They'll need more trucks and drivers . . . . .

[A64Pilot]

13 minutes ago, Hank said:

So what will that monster truck battery weigh, compared to 100 gal of diesel?

If your car battery weighs 1000 lb, will the truck battery weigh 17,500 lb? Talk about payload taking a hit! They'll need more trucks and drivers . . . . .

Who knows, it seems the entire drive train on a model 3 to include I believe the tires, suspension brakes etc is 200 lbs.

Scale that up to a truck and that will offset a lot of weight, but who knows.

‘The model 3 car standard range is slightly lighter than the BMW 3 series and Audi A4, so the car isn’t any heavier

Model 3sr is 3580 ish lbs

New BMW is 3536, I guess they lost a little weight.

Audi A4 3638

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

Saw you taxing out and departing L52 Sunday.  Your D is spectacular!  Have fun.

Thanks! I wish I knew you were there, would have loved to say hello. I don't know why I was thinking you were based out of SMX. We stopped in to visit my wife's cousin and her husband who are spending a couple weeks there to escape the colder weather up in Washington. Went to Wooly's up in Pismo, the carne asada fries were amazing.

[A64Pilot]

However let’s do some math, it seem an OTR truck gets about 7 MPG on average.

To drive 500 miles it will burn 500 div by 7 = 71.43 gls of diesel

Fuel cost is down, todays Fl average is 3.82 x 71.43 = $272.14 to drive 500 miles.

Assume the Tesla truck battery is 900 KW, because that is what’s been released 

If they don’t get a break on electricity and every Commercial entity does, but I pay .17c per KWH at my house.

Assume the battery is completely exhausted at 500 miles and you will use 900 KW to recharge it.

900 x 17 =  $153

Seeing as how the cost to burn Diesel is almost twice as much one assumes if needed they can leave a little weight on the dock

Check my math I make mistakes, but that’s worst casing everything for the Tesla truck so the actual fuel cost will be less

I just looked it up Fl Commercial rate is 11.8 c per KWH

So Fl Commercial rate for power brings the electricity cost down to $106 vs $272 for Diesel

So roughly a little more than 1/3 the cost to charge vs burn Diesel 

 

[Schllc]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

• Diesel fuel costs more

 

Diesel fuel has a higher heat value per unit of volume. On a BTU/dollar basis it is cheaper and why it is the fuel of choice for large vehicle fleet operations.

I always thought it was the torque and longevity?  The compression ignition cycle produces a more constant “power stroke” than a combustion ignition.  (Not explaining this to “you”, but to any who may not know the fundamental difference between diesel and gasoline engines )

Trucks that tow heavy loads need the torque for stopping and starting and inclines.  I have experienced it myself over the years towing trailers. A diesel struggles much less going up windy mountain roads than a gas engine, a lot less shifting and rpm’s  

maybe you’re saying the same thing?

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

So if it takes 250,000 W to rapidly charge a 5,000 lb automobile how much will it take to charge an 80,0000 lb truck?

According to this article, the new V4 charging system will jump from 250 kW to something over 1 MW.  Also the voltage has again doubled:
V1 = 120v outlet (usually 15 amps)
V2 = 240v outlet (30-50 amps)
V3 = 480v outlets at current SuperChargers
V4 = something around 1,000v for the trucks

Also, because of the potential heating of the conductors, the charging cables at the new MegaChargers are liquid cooled.

I didn't read the whole article, but one statistic that caught my eye is 82,000 lbs GVW and 0-60 mph fully loaded.

https://insideevs.com/news/624881/tesla-semi-1mw-v4-charging-cable

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

So what will that monster truck battery weigh, compared to 100 gal of diesel?

Not sure about weight, but the article in my previous post says that the "big battery" option will be about 1 MWh capacity.  Can weight be estimated from that number?

[A64Pilot]

23 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

According to this article, the new V4 charging system will jump from 250 kW to something over 1 MW.  Also the voltage has again doubled:
V1 = 120v outlet (usually 15 amps)
V2 = 240v outlet (30-50 amps)
V3 = 480v outlets at current SuperChargers
V4 = something around 1,000v for the trucks

Also, because of the potential heating of the conductors, the charging cables at the new MegaChargers are liquid cooled.

I didn't read the whole article, but one statistic that caught my eye is 82,000 lbs GVW and 0-60 mph fully loaded.

https://insideevs.com/news/624881/tesla-semi-1mw-v4-charging-cable

I know the performance metric they were shooting for was to keep up with automobile accelerations in normal traffic when loaded so that the truck wouldn’t hinder traffic or so I read anyway.

Also I believe the regen braking is sufficient on all but the very steepest hills, and of course it’s nearly silent, tire noise I guess would be it’s noise.

If it’s a mega watt hour battery it has to weigh several tons. I don’t think 5 tons is a crazy estimate at all, my guess is more, probably way more.

However from memory, it’s been 40 years after all, but a class 8 trucks cargo capacity is in the 44,000 lbs range, the feast of the 80,000 lbs is truck trailer and fuel, so the truck may be 30,000 lbs or so.

If I had to guess the Tesla just can’t get down close to the Diesel’s weight and might could be either be granted a weight waiver or simply just can’t carry as much weight. Most trucks on the road don’t gross 80,000 though, most cargo just isn’t that heavy, they run out of trailer before they hit the weight limit.

According to this only a small percentage weigh out, majority cube out

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-625-may-31-2010-distribution-trucks-road-vehicle-weight

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

According to this only a small percentage weigh out, majority cube out

When I was in school, one of my summer jobs was on a freight dock.  We carried some steel, but it was mixed freight.  You might have a little steel, and the rest of the trailer was full of shoes or something.  Once had a trailer "full" of tires.  They were big tires, and only 6 "filled" the trailer.  It was a rag-top trailer, and they stuck out the top.  Those tires are heavy but, as you suggest, that load probably cubed out.

[A64Pilot]

My battery does weigh 1,000 lbs, actually I think a little more, yet the car is no heavier than the two most closest cars size wise, and it does better in crash tests, so one has to assume the engine, transmission, exhaust, cooling system etc add up to quite a bit of weight.

‘But if 50 KWH = 1,000 lbs then if my math is correct then a 1 Megawatt hour pack would weigh 20,000 lbs.

‘I’m sure it’s not that simple and the huge battery won’t be that much, but it has to be really heavy

[A64Pilot]

Just now, Fly Boomer said:

When I was in school, one of my summer jobs was on a freight dock.  We carried some steel, but it was mixed freight.  You might have a little steel, and the rest of the trailer was full of shoes or something.  Once had a trailer "full" of tires.  They were big tires, and only 6 "filled" the trailer.  It was a rag-top trailer, and they stuck out the top.  Those tires are heavy but, as you suggest, that load probably cubed out.

Funny I worked at a Warehouse unloading trailers as a kid with a fork lift and often “spotted” trailers on the yard and moved them to the Warehouse for unloading etc.

Even moved rail cars on the other side, lord help you if you let them go just a few ft too far, it was real work getting them back uphill.

[GeeBee]

3 hours ago, Schllc said:

I always thought it was the torque and longevity?  The compression ignition cycle produces a more constant “power stroke” than a combustion ignition.  (Not explaining this to “you”, but to any who may not know the fundamental difference between diesel and gasoline engines )

Trucks that tow heavy loads need the torque for stopping and starting and inclines.  I have experienced it myself over the years towing trailers. A diesel struggles much less going up windy mountain roads than a gas engine, a lot less shifting and rpm’s  

maybe you’re saying the same thing?

There is a lot to recommend for diesel except acceleration, however I was addressing only one complaint, that diesel fuel is more expensive. When one thinks about it, for fuel produced in mass quantities (and to be clear avgas is not one of those), fuel pricing is priced fairly in btu/dollars.

[Pinecone]

15 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I didn't read the whole article, but one statistic that caught my eye is 82,000 lbs GVW and 0-60 mph fully loaded.

https://insideevs.com/news/624881/tesla-semi-1mw-v4-charging-cable

One thing I noticed. They spec the GVW, but don't give you the vehicle empty weight with either of the two battery options.

[Fly Boomer]

58 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

One thing I noticed. They spec the GVW, but don't give you the vehicle empty weight with either of the two battery options.

As @A64Pilot surmises, those batteries have to weigh many tons.

[Skates97]

Silly me seeing unread posts in this thread and thinking there would be some sort of insurance discussion... Perhaps there should be a different thread to debate EV's. 

[aviatoreb]

3 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

Silly me seeing unread posts in this thread and thinking there would be some sort of insurance discussion... Perhaps there should be a different thread to debate EV's. 

Now you are being just silly Skates97.  And sort of picky.

By the way did anyone notice a technology announcement of sorts in avweb yesterday of a chineese company that has claimed to have produced a nuclear battery that is in some sense all things good - it emits no notable radiation externally, its decay products are eventually normal copper, and the current product is very small only suitable for medical device implants - they run for 50 years in that setting, and they claim upscaling it slightly it would keep a drone aloft for years.  I am not confirming or denying how much this is vaporware but a fun article on topic with the hidden actual EV message of this not about insurance thread.

[jlunseth]

Here in MN, it is 7 dF today, the last three days have been below zero. Talking to my brother in ND it has been quite a bit colder up there. I travel a lot from MN out to western ND. It is a 400 mile, 6 hr. drive. It would be 8 to 10 in an electric vehicle with stops for charging, assuming I could even find a charging station out in ND. Since the Bakken was developed in the early 2000s there are more gas stations around, but before that if you were out in the country you had to drive 20 or 30 miles one way just to buy gas. Once in ND, we are completely off road quite a bit, or gravel at best. In ND they have gates to lock the freeways off, to stop Darwinian candidates from “might as well give it a try” when blizzards close the roads. Don’t think it is only in the far, isolated stretches of ND. I have run into 30 foot drifts in southern IA, spent a night sleeping in the truck with the engine running for heat once at Mason City. IA is the worst because the main freeways are north-south and the prevailing blizzard winds are westerly, causing massive drifting. Ice coats the roads in mid-IA and around Ames is the worst. I have watched semi’s being blown sideways off the road in Neb and Kansas, the ditches are full of them during a good blizzard. WI is no better. 

We have some Teslas on the roads in the Minneapolis area where I live. They are cute little commuter cars as long as you can park in your heated garage downtown and plug in in your heated garage at home at night. But for traveling around the upper Midwest, well let’s just say the death rate due to weather would go up quite a bit if we all had to do that. 

That doesn’t even deal with the tire issue. Sold cars these days all have factory tires made for fuel mileage. Paper thin and practically no tread, they are incompetent, unsafe vehicles on the roads in winter. I used to carry a tow strap in my Suburban and would pull ten or so of these vehicles out of their winter predicament every year, I don’t bother anymore cause I am too old to go crawling around in my business suit underneath one of those things to find a frame member to attach to. We see lots of business types who move here from the east or west coast thinking they can drive in the winter on those tires and in those cars. They buy a good SUV after a couple of years. Oh, and we have an animal here called a deer. They like to sit in the ditch and jump out in front of your new 80k sedan. In my Suburban I can see down in those ditches before they make the jump. Have never hit one, although I have many “green” friends who drive sedans who have hit more than one. That’s another reason people buy SUVs up here.

[Danb]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Silly me seeing unread posts in this thread and thinking there would be some sort of insurance discussion... Perhaps there should be a different thread to debate EV's. 

Richard this is now a Tesla site..

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Silly me seeing unread posts in this thread and thinking there would be some sort of insurance discussion... Perhaps there should be a different thread to debate EV's. 

The 'Tapping Brakes' thread is all about HP calculators and shoes.   Thread drift is what we're good at here.   

[Echo]

17 hours ago, GeeBee said:

There is a lot to recommend for diesel except acceleration, however I was addressing only one complaint, that diesel fuel is more expensive. When one thinks about it, for fuel produced in mass quantities (and to be clear avgas is not one of those), fuel pricing is priced fairly in btu/dollars.

Diesel is a more simple fuel to refine, yet it costs more…