Downdrafts over Pennsylvania and Maryland?

[Ned Gravel]

Question to the group:

Have you ever encountered this (in the flatland area)?  Not talking about mountain waves here.

Yesterday, I flew from Gaithersburg, MD to Rockcliffe, ON.  See http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CFSWR/history/20120326/1615Z/KGAI/CYRO.

Cleared to 9000' shortly after departure and doing close to 1500 fpm, as I got above 8000', I started noticing a significant decrease in climb performance.  Took three tries to get from 8000' to 9000' as I neared the Winchester VOR (EMI).  2600 rpm, 25" MAP, good fuel flow, good temperatures and pressures.  WTF?

Turning north, I ran into the circumstance of the aircraft struggling to hold altitude whenever we were over a bunch of cloud cover (mostly scattered).  In the clear areas, no problem.  Normally corrrected by increasing from 2500 rpm to 2600 or 2650 rpm.  Running at or slightly rich of peak because I did not want the slight decrease in performance caused by LOP ops.

Situation changed back to normal operations shortly after crossing over New York and was not encountered again.

Arctic Air mass descending over Pennsylvania and Maryland? 

Into Ontario, there were other issues regarding moderate turbulence below 6000'.  C-FSWR was the only aircraft to land at Rockcliffe yesterday.  Mooneys (at least my short body one) appear to be good crosswind machines.....

 

[John Pleisse]

I have lived and flown this area my entire flying career (based 18nm north of GAI). Yesterday was windy, I think winds aloft at 8,000 were in excess of 60 nmph. While you were seemingly in flatland, you really weren't. At Westminster, you were only 25 miles east of terrain. You were only 30-60 miles down range of the mountains most of your trip until you either flew out of the the building high pressure or you were clear of terrain. You flew abeam and slightly down range of the mountains most of the way. Well, you know the rest.

In our area, even moderately windy days are rought with mechanical turbulence at low levels, usually over flown at about 3500 ft. But with steep gradient and building high pressure over the hills, you end up riding the wave much higher up. Closer in, waves precede rotors and you really get thumped. With conditions present 30 miles down range of the last foothills. Ross (Shadrach) and Seth are often on Mooneyspace. They could offer insight as well.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: N4352H

I have lived and flown this area my entire flying career (based 18nm north of GAI). Yesterday was windy, I think winds aloft at 8,000 were in excess of 60 nmph. While you were seemingly in flatland, you really weren't. At Westminster, you were only 25 miles east of terrain. You were only 30-60 miles down range of the mountains most of your trip until you either flew out of the the building high pressure or you were clear of terrain. You flew abeam and slightly down range of the mountains most of the way. Well, you know the rest.

In our area, even moderately windy days are rought with mechanical turbulence at low levels, usually over flown at about 3500 ft. But with steep gradient and building high pressure over the hills, you end up riding the wave much higher up. Closer in, waves precede rotors and you really get thumped. With conditions present 30 miles down range of the last foothills. Ross (Shadrach) and Seth are often on Mooneyspace. They could offer insight as well.

[Steve Dawson]

Looks like you were bucking some head winds going home Ned, but kept your altitude pretty well considering. Do you have altitude hold?

 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: aviatoreb

This excitement was running all along the North East the last few days.  There has been a big fat sigmet turbulence parked over the top of all of us for a few days.  I took my wife and her friend to Newport, VT -KEFK- the other day to drop her off.  Gorgeous airport by a lake in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont nestled between the Green Mountains and the White Mountains.  Well it was VERY bumpy and my poor wife who is already a tepid flyer.  Later on climb out I climbed south instead of east toward the mountain so I could get above the rotors before I headed toward the mountains.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Sounds like the crap we put up with almost all the time here in Colorado! 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: colojo

Sounds like the crap we put up with almost all the time here in Colorado! 

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Quote: N4352H

 Last commerical flight I took to Co-Springs...... you couldn't poke a golf tee up my butt.

Our mountains are 2200'...your's are 10,000'.

[Seth]

While no Rockies, the Appalachian Mountains run up the eastern US and divide the east Coast from the Ohio Valley and the plains of the center of the United States.  Whenever I head to OH, IL, IN, WV, and believe it or not (unless you live or fly there regularly) NC and VA, you have plenty of terrain to deal with, and unless you are real high, you get bumps of some sort.  If you look at the airspace around DC, on the west side the Class Bravo outer ring rises very quickly to allow enough clearance for the baby mountains. 

At first when flying I just thought the thermals got bad around here but I've learned a lot of it is air masses moving down the mountains and spilling out toward the shore.  Some of it is thermals, but a lot is not.  

Ned - I'm sorry we missed meeting each other - just a few days before I was able to meet up with Erik for about 20 minutes. 

However, I have never really experienced flying where I couldn't climb or maintain 9000' without running the engine hard.  I have had a hard time holding an altitude due to getting slammed around, but that's when you request a block altitude.  No matter what, whenever I'm flying over WV, I get bounced around.  With the windy conditions yesterday, I knew it would be a turbulent flight.

It is amazing how it is hard to know around here when it looks like a clear day and you are immediately slammed by the mountain waves (not like the Rockies again) or the thermals.  I love the days when it's smooth as glass with no bumps at any low altitude.  Separately, I love looking at my WX seeing the frontal line, and then looking out and seeing the cloud line in the same location as the frontal line on the map.  The closer you are to the frontal boundaries, usually the more bumpy it is (again, usually).

Anyone ever experience a massive frontal downdraft or mountain waves?

I was lucky to be up this morning getting an IPC, and it was still rather bumpy.  I never climbed above 4000 feet as we practiced multiple approaches at BWI and GAI.  

Glad you made it home safe! 

-Seth

[Hank]

Seth--

I and the rest of my family live on opposite sides of the Appalachians. I normally run N-S just west of Mt. Mitchell, the highest point east of the Rockies, or to the SE/NW going to/from the Raliegh area. On good days, 6500' works well; I've also been hammered pretty hard at 8500. The stronger the winds are blowing, the higher I like to be. I've climbed to 10K, and once even eked my carbureted way to 11,000 when the winds were strong out of the west, evading the waves and turbulence.

It's all part of it. Having taken PPL & Instrument training here, flying in/over WV usually isn't too bad. As always, altitude is your friend!

When heading Atlanta-ward, I usually use 9K & 10K for the trip, then I usually don't have to worry about it.

P.S.--the worst I've seen was at 8500, headed home from Sun-n-Fun last year through western NC. Got past it in ~15 minutes, but it was no fun, hard to read the gauges even. That would have added a whole new element if I'd been in the clouds--how do you stay in control if the needles and your eyes are all wobbly and shaken??

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Quote: Seth

While no Rockies, the Appalachian Mountains run up the eastern US and divide the east Coast from the Ohio Valley and the plains of the center of the United States.  Whenever I head to OH, IL, IN, WV, and believe it or not (unless you live or fly there regularly) NC and VA, you have plenty of terrain to deal with, and unless you are real high, you get bumps of some sort.  If you look at the airspace around DC, on the west side the Class Bravo outer ring rises very quickly to allow enough clearance for the baby mountains. 

At first when flying I just thought the thermals got bad around here but I've learned a lot of it is air masses moving down the mountains and spilling out toward the shore.  Some of it is thermals, but a lot is not.  

Ned - I'm sorry we missed meeting each other - just a few days before I was able to meet up with Erik for about 20 minutes. 

However, I have never really experienced flying where I couldn't climb or maintain 9000' without running the engine hard.  I have had a hard time holding an altitude due to getting slammed around, but that's when you request a block altitude.  No matter what, whenever I'm flying over WV, I get bounced around.  With the windy conditions yesterday, I knew it would be a turbulent flight.

It is amazing how it is hard to know around here when it looks like a clear day and you are immediately slammed by the mountain waves (not like the Rockies again) or the thermals.  I love the days when it's smooth as glass with no bumps at any low altitude.  Separately, I love looking at my WX seeing the frontal line, and then looking out and seeing the cloud line in the same location as the frontal line on the map.  The closer you are to the frontal boundaries, usually the more bumpy it is (again, usually).

Anyone ever experience a massive frontal downdraft or mountain waves?

I was lucky to be up this morning getting an IPC, and it was still rather bumpy.  I never climbed above 4000 feet as we practiced multiple approaches at BWI and GAI.  

Glad you made it home safe! 

-Seth

[Ned Gravel]

Quote: Fastbyk

Looks like you were bucking some head winds going home Ned, but kept your altitude pretty well considering. Do you have altitude hold?

 

[jackn]

Good picture of those mountain waves. You can see how far they can go.

[Ned Gravel]

Quote: jackn

Good picture of those mountain waves. You can see how far they can go.

[jackn]

Pilot My-Cast from Garmin. I use it for weather.

[Shadrach]

Quote: edgargravel

Yup, but it would often try to compensate for the impending descent and the speed would start to drop.  That is when I would disconnect the altitude hold and open up the governor a hundred rpm or so.