Prospective M20 buyer looking for avionics advice

[RescueMunchkin]

Hi Everyone,

I'm looking for an M20 as my first plane. Want a WAAS enabled IFR panel, electronic engine monitoring.  My dilemma is to look for a cheaper plane without modern avionics and do the upgrading myself, or to go straight into one that has at least a Garmin 430w.

Does anyone also have a good sense of the cost for a modern panel WAAS enabled gps and G5 for AI/airspeed/altitude if upgrading from something completely original?  Or if there are less expensive or better options than those?

Thanks!

[toto]

It really depends on whether you get more satisfaction from selecting the avionics package that’s best for you, or getting the cheaper acquisition price. 

When you buy a plane that someone else has upgraded, you’ll get the upgrades at a discount, but almost certainly the PO will have made different choices than you would. 

[RescueMunchkin]

I would take the $ savings over having things exactly how I want.  I'm too low time to really know much about what I'm missing out on, but I feel like an electronic attitude display is more reliable than the vacuum powered ones, so that would be something I'd change if it weren't already electronic.

[toto]

3 minutes ago, RescueMunchkin said:

I would take the $ savings over having things exactly how I want.  I'm too low time to really know much about what I'm missing out on, but I feel like an electronic attitude display is more reliable than the vacuum powered ones, so that would be something I'd change if it weren't already electronic.

You could always get a Dynon Pocket Panel. Less than 1AMU and zero install cost. 

That would buy you some time to gain experience in the aircraft and make avionics decisions down the road. 

https://dynonavionics.com/pocket-panel.php

[RescueMunchkin]

12 minutes ago, toto said:

You could always get a Dynon Pocket Panel. Less than 1AMU and zero install cost. 

That would buy you some time to gain experience in the aircraft and make avionics decisions down the road. 

https://dynonavionics.com/pocket-panel.php

Wow, had no idea these existed!  Thank you!

[ArtVandelay]

Wow, had no idea these existed!  Thank you!

It’s not certified for IFR use.

[toto]

24 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

It’s not certified for IFR use.

Right, this would be a backup to the certified vacuum AI in the panel. 

[ZuluZulu]

It's WAY cheaper to buy a plane that already has nice avionics than to have them all put in yourself.  Once they're installed, the plane is worth the additional value of the avionics (roughly 50% of the retail price according to an airplane lender I talked to), but only the person installing them ever pays the installation labor cost plus the retail cost.  That doesn't get recouped when you sell.  So, long story short, when you have avionics installed, it is not a dollar-for-dollar value add, in fact it's only a fraction of the total spend going into the hull value/sales price.  As others have already said, you only want to do the avionics upgrades yourself if you want total control over what goes in and don't mind paying for the privilege.

Since I'm selling my plane after putting dual G5s, GFC 500, and more into it, I know this only too well.   

[Z W]

In the current market, I would be wary of a plane that doesn't even have a WAAS GPS installed.  It's usually a sign the plane has sat, not been used, and not been maintained.  Maybe not so true in a VFR bush plane or a trainer, but in a M20, which was built for cross-country cruising, it's a red flag.

Also, it's a terrible time to be trying to upgrade your panel.  Avionics shops have been so busy they can't get all the work done for about the last 3-4 years.  Combination of a hot airplane market and all kinds of new awesome avionics being released at relatively affordable prices.  Been waiting for a slot at our shop for over 6 months to have a 430W swapped for a GTN650.  They say it'll be December, unless someone cancels on them sooner.

I would say try to buy something with at least a WAAS GPS and fly it for a while so you can know what you want, and continue to fly it, before you upgrade anything.

[Pinecone]

What I did was find a plane that had a panel I could live with, but worked in putting away the money for the panel I wanted.

I would definitly get something with WAAS.

[Utah20Gflyer]

20 hours ago, RescueMunchkin said:

Hi Everyone,

I'm looking for an M20 as my first plane. Want a WAAS enabled IFR panel, electronic engine monitoring.  My dilemma is to look for a cheaper plane without modern avionics and do the upgrading myself, or to go straight into one that has at least a Garmin 430w.

Does anyone also have a good sense of the cost for a modern panel WAAS enabled gps and G5 for AI/airspeed/altitude if upgrading from something completely original?  Or if there are less expensive or better options than those?

Thanks!

My best guess to add an electronic AI/HSI a WAAS Gps and an Engine monitor you are looking at 25k.   That is if you go with one of the budget Gps navigators like the 175/355/375.   If you go for a 650 you are looking at 30k minimum.  
 

If you want it then buy a plane with it.  It’s cheaper, lower risk and less headache. 

[Pinecone]

These days you can get a rough estimate of install of between 50% to 100% of the cost of the equipment.  

The range is due to things like it costs pretty much the same to install a GTN-750 and a 650, but the equipment cost is a LOT more for the 750.

Also, as you do more at one time, the percentage goes down as you have already paid for taking the interior and inspection panels apart and putting it back together.

[hubcap]

As someone who recently did a complete panel upgrade…I recommend buying a plane that already has a panel you can live with, unless it’s your “forever” plane. The upgrade process is expensive, time consuming, frustrating, and expensive. If you are still on good terms with the installer after it’s finished, be very thankful. Be prepared for your plane to be in the shop most of a year for a complete upgrade….regardless of how long they tell you it will take.

[ArtVandelay]

As someone who recently did a complete panel upgrade…I recommend buying a plane that already has a panel you can live with, unless it’s your “forever” plane. The upgrade process is expensive, time consuming, frustrating, and expensive. If you are still on good terms with the installer after it’s finished, be very thankful. Be prepared for your plane to be in the shop most of a year for a complete upgrade….regardless of how long they tell you it will take.

Upgrade process can also be rewarding, getting it the way you wanted.

Most of the year? I would say 3-6 months for a complete upgrade depending on unexpected problems found. Before you take it to the shop, do an oil change so your engine internally isn’t bathed in dirty oil.

[Marc_B]

For what’s its worth, I lucked out on an aircraft with a solid glass panel and upgraded to a GFC500 autopilot a year or so in. I took that opportunity to upgrade the panel and now I have a fully integrated setup exactly how “I” want it. 
Bottom line, you can adapt to whatever set up you have. Priority in my mind for IFR is a solid autopilot tied to easy to use WAAS GPS navigator. Priority for engine longevity and reliability is a modern electronic engine monitor with all the data. You can do these things countless ways, mixed and matched or all one manufacturer.

But having a fully integrated panel that is easy and quick to use (and being knowledgeable about all the nuance) is really pretty amazing. It’s worth the cost and wait (IMHO) if this will be something you’ll spend plenty of future time flying behind. But a project this involved has plenty of potential for pitfalls and issues you weren’t aware of. So choose a shop wisely based on their experience first and foremost.
I have a great shop local to me and came away with an amazing setup and wouldn’t hesitate to work with them again. Of course we found some quirks of my aircraft along the way but some things just take money and time, unavoidably.  I think that was the first lesson I learned as an aircraft owner!

If all you want is a capable aircraft and don’t need to have it “perfectly” your way…buy an aircraft you can live with, and let the previous owners fit the time and money bill for it.  But if you want it set up your way: do your research, take your time, plan for extra time and money for unexpected quirks, and get it done right the first time.

[hubcap]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Upgrade process can also be rewarding, getting it the way you wanted.

Most of the year? I would say 3-6 months for a complete upgrade depending on unexpected problems found. Before you take it to the shop, do an oil change so your engine internally isn’t bathed in dirty oil.

My plane went in for upgrade immediately following my last years annual. Took 7 months which was 3 months longer than the quote. No surprises.

I love the result, just didn’t appreciate the process and the fact that my plane was down 3 months longer than the agreed upon time.

[0TreeLemur]

@RescueMunchkin you ask a great question.   As someone who has followed these threads for several years, I have learned:

1.  Buy as much Mooney as you can afford that suits your mission.

2.  It makes more sense to let the previous owner eat the labor and depreciation associated with a panel upgrade than to have it done yourself - Unless you are very set on what avionics you want and how they are laid out in the panel. 

1+2 = 3.  Buy a Mooney with a panel that has been updated and that meets your needs.  I fully agree with previous statements that if a Mooney doesn't have a WAAS GPS, that's a bad sign, unless logbooks indicate frequent use and good, steady maintenance, and selling at a significant discount.

The Mooney we upgraded to last year has an Avidyne IFD540 gnss navigator and a single Aspen, both connect to a KFC-150 A/P.    This combination does everything our mission requires.

Bonus: The prior owner paid to reseal the tanks and strip/paint the aircraft in the last 5 years.   That's at least $20k ($30k?) of upgrades that we won't have to pay for!

[Pinecone]

On 10/2/2023 at 8:20 AM, hubcap said:

As someone who recently did a complete panel upgrade…I recommend buying a plane that already has a panel you can live with, unless it’s your “forever” plane. The upgrade process is expensive, time consuming, frustrating, and expensive. If you are still on good terms with the installer after it’s finished, be very thankful. Be prepared for your plane to be in the shop most of a year for a complete upgrade….regardless of how long they tell you it will take.

You forget expensive.   And there is the fact that it is expensive.

 

[Pinecone]

On 10/2/2023 at 12:05 PM, hubcap said:

My plane went in for upgrade immediately following my last years annual. Took 7 months which was 3 months longer than the quote. No surprises.

I love the result, just didn’t appreciate the process and the fact that my plane was down 3 months longer than the agreed upon time.

My shop is quoting 8 - 10 weeks.

We will see, so far everyone that has used them has been happy and they have been pretty much on time.

Mine is being combined with a split annual.  It will go to one shop for all the stuff like engine run, gear swing, etc.  Then, near the end of the avionics upgrade, the actual inspection and lube and stuff will be done.  That way I don't pay two shops to take off all the inspection panels and replace them and I don't lose time off the annual while it is in the shop.

[hubcap]

26 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

My shop is quoting 8 - 10 weeks.

I genuinely hope you get your plane back in 10 weeks. Please let us know how it goes.
 

I paid for 100% of the hardware and it was ordered in April. All of the hardware was on hand before the upgrade was started. Myrtle went in for upgrade the 15th of October with the commitment that she would be complete the end of January. At the end of January, we had a meeting and the commitment was made that she would be complete by March 29th.
 

She was finally completed April 30th. 
 

I guess they figure that you being happy is optional because you aren’t going to be a repeat customer.

[Pinecone]

I will keep you informed.

 

[DCarlton]

On 9/30/2023 at 4:59 AM, Z W said:

In the current market, I would be wary of a plane that doesn't even have a WAAS GPS installed.  It's usually a sign the plane has sat, not been used, and not been maintained.  Maybe not so true in a VFR bush plane or a trainer, but in a M20, which was built for cross-country cruising, it's a red flag.

 

Not necessarily.  I'd like to have WAAS but I'm satisfied with my GNS-430 / KX-155.  My GNS has been overhauled by Garmin and works like new.  I'm hesitant to upgrade because I know the quality of the original installation and I have the schematics.  A GNS-430 to Avidyne IFD-440 slide in replacement wouldn't be that invasive, time consuming or costly.  The one thing that's driving me towards an upgrade is updating the data cards on the older GNS, not my ability to fly.  

[Z W]

I did my IFR rating in a M20C with a non-WAAS GNS-430.  It is a great little GPS unit and you can fly lots of places with it.  But GPS approaches being limited to lateral guidance only is a big limitation.

Upgrading to WAAS is worth it, however you do it.  Having a glideslope into any small airport in the United States adds a huge comfort and safety factor for IFR flight.  No more pitch, power, or configuration changes at each step down point while you're bouncing along in the clouds, trying to remember if this step down was 1800 feet or 1600 feet.  Just drop the gear, hit the final approach fix, and fly the needles until your decision altitude.  

My comment I guess may be less true for a plane with a GNS-430 than a plane lacking any certified GPS navigator, but a plane without WAAS still shows well over a decade of not upgrading the panel to the latest and safest technology.  Not a deal breaker, but it would still be a red flag to me if I were shopping. 

Having experienced two vacuum-driven AI failures in flight, I feel the same way about a plane that still exclusively has those too.  It may be IFR certified, but I don't consider it IFR safe, or even reasonable now that G5's, GI-275's, or even the Dynon D3 pocket panels exist.  We probably don't even know how many lives solid state AHRS units have saved since they became available.

[Fly Boomer]

21 minutes ago, Z W said:

Having experienced two vacuum-driven AI failures in flight, I feel the same way about a plane that still exclusively has those too.  It may be IFR certified, but I don't consider it IFR safe, or even reasonable now that G5's, GI-275's, or even the Dynon D3 pocket panels exist.  We probably don't even know how many lives solid state AHRS units have saved since they became available.

I guess I haven't fully absorbed the idea that all-electric is safer than vacuum.  I'm sure there are many motivations to get rid of vacuum, but I had not considered the idea that a vacuum-only AI in IMC is equivalent to no AI.  Are there statistics that support this idea?  I read a lot, but have not read a comparison of safety.

[Pinecone]

Many of the electric instruments have battery back up.  The G-5 has a 4+ hour battery.  The 275 is shorter.  And any electric AI is required to have a backup.  With a G3X you have to have a G-5 or 275.  With two G-5s or 275s, they revert, so if the AI fails, the MFD becomes an AI without any intervention from the pilot.

With the G3X and G-5, the autopilot also reverts, but you have to reengage it.

I am considering having a battery backup installed during my upcoming upgrade to power the G3X and a GPS/nav/com.