M20F Vs. Cessna 177RG........Thoughts?

[flyby201]

There is a Cardinal User group on the web.  It's called Cardinal Flyers Online.  I used to get their posts to my e-mail.  Very active group with a lot of useful info.  I followed it because most of the Cardinals have the same IO-360 engines as our Mooneys and they would discuss topics related to that as well as avionics issues applicable to any brand. 

FWIW,  when I was first considering an aircraft purchase, a friend of mine with much more aircraft  ownership experience than I was giving me a lot of advice.  I was looking at Mooney F and G models as well as Arrows, C-210's, C-177's.  He advised me to pay the additional $$ and get a 201 and he owned a Cardinal at the time.  His advice was right on.  I haven't regretted it for a minute.

[mschmuff]

[gregwatts]

Quote: mschmuff

I wanted to thank everyone for their input on this thread as well as a couple other threads. As of Monday April 2^nd I am the proud new owner of a 1967 M20F electric gear / manual flaps, Century III auto pilot and HSI. (No IFR GPS) 1 piece windshield (not 201), cowl closure, flap, aileron, wing root gap seals, 201 side windows, new prop/hub. ….It had a gear up in the 80’s but everything was well documented. It is missing the ram air door cable – any idea where I can get one of them?

Just to share a “classic delivery” story – the seller flew the plane to Wilmington, DE for my mechanic to do a 2^nd and final inspection. I got the thumbs up from him, we did the deal and went out for an hour training / familiarization flight. After I felt comfortable, we flew to Trenton, NJ and I dropped him off. On take off, the ammeter dropped to -30! And btw, it’s 930pm. I get half way home and the radios start to go so I immediately drop the gear using up the remaining battery power and everything goes black - no green gear light.

….(in hindsight, I should have dropped the gear as soon as I saw the ammeter drop) At this point I am on a Bravo clearance from Philly so I vacate their airspace. I circle around Wilmington waiting for a light gun signal and get nothing so I go in and land with no landing light and only 6 hours in type. Nice first flight!!

I met my mechanic at 8am and removed the generator. Pieces fell out upon extraction. Long story made endless, I’m upgrading to an alternator, a light weight starter and swapping the landing light for an LED…..and it begins!! Glad I took someone’s advice on here and put 10% of the sales price away for 1^st year maintenance! Thanks for that piece of advice!!

So if you guys think I asked a lot of questions before buying, just wait…now that I own!! Any other must have mods? I’m thinking SWTA’s oil cooler relo / 2^nd landing light mod. The panel needs help – Narco AP, mk12, MAC 1700, Garmin 100GPS. I put a 696 on the yoke and am considering a GMA340 or PS7000 or 8000 audio panel, new jacks, iPod hook up etc. Maybe a GNC300, I just don’t think I can stomach a 430W but I want a “newer” comm1…..thoughts??? And if anyone knows anybody in the mid-atlantic that does reasonable avionics work – let me know!! These shops are highway robbery!!

[kellym]

[jkb458]

[Seth]

Quote: mschmuff

 

I wanted to thank everyone for their input on this thread as well as a couple other threads.  As of Monday April 2^nd I am the proud new owner of a 1967 M20F electric gear / manual flaps, Century III auto pilot and HSI.  (No IFR GPS)  1 piece windshield (not 201), cowl closure, flap, aileron, wing root gap seals, 201 side windows, new prop/hub.  ….It had a gear up in the 80’s but everything was well documented.   It is missing the ram air door cable – any idea where I can get one of them? 

Just to share a “classic delivery” story – the seller flew the plane to Wilmington, DE for my mechanic to do a 2^nd and final inspection.  I got the thumbs up from him, we did the deal and went out for an hour training / familiarization flight.  After I felt comfortable, we flew to Trenton, NJ and I dropped him off.  On take off, the ammeter dropped to -30! And btw, it’s 930pm.  I get half way home and the radios start to go so I immediately drop the gear using up the remaining battery power and everything goes black - no green gear light.

….(in hindsight, I should have dropped the gear as soon as I saw the ammeter drop)  At this point I am on a Bravo clearance from Philly so I vacate their airspace.  I circle around Wilmington waiting for a light gun signal and get nothing so I go in and land with no landing light and only 6 hours in type.  Nice first flight!!

I met my mechanic at 8am and removed the generator.  Pieces fell out upon extraction.  Long story made endless, I’m upgrading to an alternator, a light weight starter and swapping the landing light for an LED…..and it begins!! Glad I took someone’s advice on here and put 10% of the sales price away for 1^st year maintenance!  Thanks for that piece of advice!! 

So if you guys think I asked a lot of questions before buying, just wait…now that I own!!  Any other must have mods? I’m thinking SWTA’s oil cooler relo / 2^nd landing light mod.  The panel  needs help – Narco AP, mk12, MAC 1700, Garmin 100GPS.  I put a 696 on the yoke and am considering a GMA340 or PS7000 or 8000 audio panel, new jacks, iPod hook up etc.  Maybe a GNC300, I just don’t think I can stomach a 430W but I want a “newer” comm1…..thoughts???  And if anyone knows anybody in the mid-atlantic that does reasonable avionics work – let me know!!  These shops are highway robbery!! 

[cujet]

 I own and fly a 177RG for reasons of easy access. It is a very responsive, comfortable, roomy and capable aircraft. There is a loyal following of owners, who keep the RG's a long time because they love 'em. They are good aircraft, inexpensive, easy to maintain and most/all of the gear/leak/door issues are in the past, fixed by service bulletins and updated parts/practices. The gear is much tougher than it looks too. It's spring steel and will absorb a badly balked landing without any issue! (ask me how I know) . I can eventually reach an absolute maximum speed at 8500ft cruise of 143Kts TAS. But that takes effort, fiddling, CG management and so on. It certainly can't be counted on. Lean of peak operations drop the TAS to the 125Kt range. I plan for 135Kts. FF is around 9.5GPH at 8500. 

A direct comparison between an M20F vs. 177RG is not easy to find. So, I'd like to post my thoughts, having flown both. We will agree that it's slower. But, how much and does it make a difference? The M20F, will cruise-climb from 3500-7500 feet in 6 minutes, w/full fuel/one occupant, for an avg rate of climb of 830fpm. The 177RG will do the same in 11 minutes, for an avg rate of 450fpm. And, the M20F will be going significantly faster over the ground doing so.

At 100Lbs under max gross, a Florida based 177RG will make 11,000-12,000 feet, and be at the 50FPM ROC limit. Up North in the cool air, it will do better. A formation flight between the two clearly illustrate the performance advantage of the M20F, as it will out accelerate, out climb and out cruise the RG, leaving the RG in the dust fairly rapidly, with the M20F being out of sight in about 20 minutes. (ask me how I know that too)

The 177RG is slightly underpowered for 2800 pound, max gross ops. To that end, additional power makes a huge difference in performance, and I would say it's "required". The tuned exhaust and/or IO-390 engine (10 more rated HP) bring the Cardinal into the realm of reasonable climb and cruise performance. It's one of those aircraft that is truly "just shy" of enough HP. Mostly due to the horrible Cessna exhaust and intake setup.

With the IO-390 engine, my guess is that a 177RG will likely match a stock M20F in most performance aspects. With the Lopresti cowl, 360 engine and powerflow exhaust, 157Kts cruise at altitude is possible.  

[1964-M20E]

mschmuff

Congrats on the "new" plane.  I do not feel so bad my generator went out about 4 months after buying mine but I do have the manual gear no problems putting the gear down.  Go with the plane power alt I’ve been happy with it.  Nobody mention to me about having a reserve but it has worked out so far and I’ve built up the reserve.