Operation Raincheck

[N201MKTurbo]

I used to do these every few years, but they went away after 9-11. Well, they are back! 

For those that aren't familiar with it it is a tour of ATC facilities with demonstrations of how to work the equipment and how they do their jobs. 

When I saw an FAA email about an operation raincheck tour back in January, I immediately tried to sign up, but all the slots were taken. I wrote back to the organizer and asked to be given a heads up when they were doing another one. About a month ago He sent me a personal email inviting me to this one. So I signed up along with getting a seat for @ragedracer1977

Last night we toured Phoenix TRACON and Phoenix Tower. They don't allow pictures in the operational areas. I don't know why and neither do they... They did allow pictures from the lower level of the tower cab.

It was very informative. They explained to us and showed us physically why some of the frequencies that we have used for decades are different now.

They explained why they can't do practice approaches to some runways at some airports depending on how the traffic is flowing at Phoenix and Scottsdale. He did suggest a workaround... He said that they are now required to provide IFR separation while doing practice approaches in the class B. He said to request VFR flight following to the FAF and then VFR flight following to the airport. Then he doesn't have to provide IFR separation and you can navigate to the airport any way you like. He said it opens up a lot more possibilities. 

I always thought the ground radar at PHX was a waste of time. The vis is never bad. He explained that it runs all the in ground runway lights. It also shows tags for all the planes lined up at the runways and makes the departure guy's job a lot easier.

 

[natdm]

wtf where was my invite.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, natdm said:

wtf where was my invite.

There were only so many seats.... I will give you the contact info so you can get in the next one....

[kortopates]

Very cool, i do these for my instrument students at the SOCAL TRACON every semester. My next one is in October.

That’s a bummer they have to apply IFR separation to VFR practice approaches since it’s makes them harder to get or adds delays. If they still take all the VFR shortcuts procedurally not following all the IFR rules it makes you wonder why bother. But i hope when the pilot screws up and there is a loss of IFR separation the VFR pilot can’t be deviated- i.e. IFR separation is more of a goal than the rule.


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[N201MKTurbo]

35 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Very cool, i do these for my instrument students at the SOCAL TRACON every semester. My next one is in October.

That’s a bummer they have to apply IFR separation to VFR practice approaches since it’s makes them harder to get or adds delays. If they still take all the VFR shortcuts procedurally not following all the IFR rules it makes you wonder why bother. But i hope when the pilot screws up and there is a loss of IFR separation the VFR pilot can’t be deviated- i.e. IFR separation is more of a goal than the rule.


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When they were doing the powerpoint at the beginning, they had a slide with a cop in a cop car and big letters that said "We are not cops!" They said they never violate anybody. They did say that their supervisors would sometimes and sometimes there are people from the FSDO there who will violate people. He said their job is to separate airplanes. If there is somebody doing something odd, they will just steer everybody around them and try to get them out of their airspace as fast as possible. They usually have the class B boundaries turned off on the radar (he said they know where they are). He said if you are VFR and clip the edge of the class B, we aren't going to do anything about it. They have ADS-B data on their screens. They only have to right click a primary target and the ADS-B data shows. If you are on the correct frequency, they will probably call you even if you haven't called them. And get you ID'd and help you out of the class B. With a bit of shade...

[Fly Boomer]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

For those that aren't familiar with it it is a tour of ATC facilities with demonstrations of how to work the equipment and how they do their jobs. 

I got to see something similar at KGGG.  No comparison to PHX, but fun and informative all the same.  Big windows for the people in the cab, and zero windows for the radar people on a lower floor.

[kortopates]

When they were doing the powerpoint at the beginning, they had a slide with a cop in a cop car and big letters that said "We are not cops!" They said they never violate anybody. They did say that their supervisors would sometimes and sometimes there are people from the FSDO there who will violate people. He said their job is to separate airplanes. If there is somebody doing something odd, they will just steer everybody around them and try to get them out of their airspace as fast as possible. They usually have the class B boundaries turned off on the radar (he said they know where they are). He said if you are VFR and clip the edge of the class B, we aren't going to do anything about it. They have ADS-B data on their screens. They only have to right click a primary target and the ADS-B data shows. If you are on the correct frequency, they will probably call you even if you haven't called them. And get you ID'd and help you out of the class B. With a bit of shade...

Maybe they have a bit more leeway, but in my SOCAL airspace if a loss of IFR separation occurs, it’s not up to the controller. it’s an automatic system notification and it’s either the fault of the controller or the pilot. The supes passes them on to FSDO whom reviews them and may talk to the pilot. But typically the supe will have the pilot call them right after the incident and with a proper response it can end right there - there are a number of situations such as going missed that a good explanation will get the pilot out of trouble but some such as deviating in excess of two hundred feet of your assigned altitude in IMC isn’t excusable. I’ve given remedial training for latter.


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[EricJ]

I was signed up to go to one a couple years ago but got sick the day of and couldn't make it.   I got on a rescheduled one and showed up, but it had been cancelled the day of.

So, glad you guys got to go. 

[N201MKTurbo]

It seems like all the flight schools are hogging the slots. There were 25 people last night and there were only three who were not from a flight school. I suspect the flight schools are reaching out to the FAA or NATCA (not sure who is actually running the place) and getting on the list before the public is invited. I think you have to be proactive to get an invite.

[ragedracer1977]

It was very informative! Thanks for the seat,  rich! 
 

Phoenix controllers are generally very helpful.  Don’t think I’ve ever gotten “lip” from them, and rarely heard it. Only time I’ve heard it is when the single controller responsible for all of the airspace north of PHX (which includes Luke AFB SATR, DVT, SDL, and FFZ - very very very busy airports) is saturated and people are unprepared to be succinct.  I actually heard, no lie, the controller ask a student “say type aircraft and altitude” and the student responded “type aircraft and altitude, ‘flight school XX’.

i almost choked.  The controller just said “flight school XX, radar services terminated. Squawk VFR.”

They deal with a lot of student pilots, many of whom are not English proficient.  

it was very cool to see their office and how they work. Great insight!

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

i almost choked.  The controller just said “flight school XX, radar services terminated. Squawk VFR.”

They deal with a lot of student pilots, many of whom are not English proficient.

That controller is quick.  That rapid-fire repartee makes it doubly funny.

Isn't there an airport in the Phoenix area (Deer Valley?) that is one of the busiest in the country because of all the student traffic?  I once listened to a controller at Chandler, with about 20 airplanes in the pattern, as her voice went up about an octave and her machine gun instructions went into overdrive.  But she was able to hang on until the traffic thinned out.  When it peaked, she said "All CHD traffic in the pattern, I'll call your base".  That's not a job I would want.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

That controller is quick.  That rapid-fire repartee makes it doubly funny.

Isn't there an airport in the Phoenix area (Deer Valley?) that is one of the busiest in the country because of all the student traffic?  I once listened to a controller at Chandler, with about 20 airplanes in the pattern, as her voice went up about an octave and her machine gun instructions went into overdrive.  But she was able to hang on until the traffic thinned out.  When it peaked, she said "All CHD traffic in the pattern, I'll call your base".  That's not a job I would want.

Deer Valley was always in the top two or three, and sometimes the busiest, GA airport in the country.    When the pandemic hit most of the students at the bigger flight schools went back to their home countries and many never came back.   Deer Valley is back to being one of the busiest, but Falcon Field in Mesa (also Phoenix area) now has more traffic than Deer Valley, and it's in the top two or three typically.    So we not only often have the busiest GA airport in the country here, we usually have two or three airports showing up in the top five.   Plus Sky Harbor is one of the busier commercial airports, so there's usually a lot of traffic in the area. 

That said, it's not difficult to navigate if you're paying attention to things.

Hmmm...this says DVT is the busiest and FFZ is down the list a bit.   Things are probably still in flux with the economy adjusting, etc.   Three of the top ten are in the Phoenix area, DVT, FFZ, and CHD, and Prescott is not too far to the northwest.   

https://pilotinstitute.com/busiest-general-aviation-airports/

[Fly Boomer]

32 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Hmmm...this says DVT is the busiest and FFZ is down the list a bit.   Things are probably still in flux with the economy adjusting, etc.   Three of the top ten are in the Phoenix area, DVT, FFZ, and CHD, and Prescott is not too far to the northwest.   

https://pilotinstitute.com/busiest-general-aviation-airports/

Wow!  I knew there was a lot of training out there, but three of the top 10 is remarkable.

[N201MKTurbo]

I’m so used to the sky being a hornets nest of airplanes all the time, whenever I take off on a cross country and after a while I think my stratus and IPad are broke. Where are all the airplanes? 

[ragedracer1977]

18 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’m so used to the sky being a hornets nest of airplanes all the time, whenever I take off on a cross country and after a while I think my stratus and IPad are broke. Where are all the airplanes? 

I always giggle inside a little when I land at a field and a local pilot will say “you really gotta watch out around here.  It’s not uncommon to have 2 or even 3 planes in the pattern at a time.” 

Here’s a little clip of stuff just going completely to crap at DVT.  Sorta tried to get it all in time, not perfect but it’s there. My favorite is, at the end - after total chaos - the controller says “nah, just cleaning it up a little, you can keep doing T&Gs”

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

31 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I always giggle inside a little when I land at a field and a local pilot will say “you really gotta watch out around here.  It’s not uncommon to have 2 or even 3 planes in the pattern at a time.” 

Here’s a little clip of stuff just going completely to crap at DVT.  Sorta tried to get it all in time, not perfect but it’s there. My favorite is, at the end - after total chaos - the controller says “nah, just cleaning it up a little, you can keep doing T&Gs”

 

 

You would think you would understand the basic traffic pattern before going to a busy airport.

Just another day at the pilot factory....

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Here’s a little clip of stuff just going completely to crap at DVT.  Sorta tried to get it all in time, not perfect but it’s there. My favorite is, at the end - after total chaos - the controller says “nah, just cleaning it up a little, you can keep doing T&Gs”

Made me laugh out loud.  Thanks.

[kortopates]

7 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I always giggle inside a little when I land at a field and a local pilot will say “you really gotta watch out around here.  It’s not uncommon to have 2 or even 3 planes in the pattern at a time.” 

Here’s a little clip of stuff just going completely to crap at DVT.  Sorta tried to get it all in time, not perfect but it’s there. My favorite is, at the end - after total chaos - the controller says “nah, just cleaning it up a little, you can keep doing T&Gs”

 

I fly out of the #3 busiest, MYF in San Diego, and in IMO the #1 issue is students pilots flying their big wide and long 747 patterns. I know why they do it, but their CFI's should be pushing them to higher standard to get comfortable with a standard FAA pattern between 0.5 to 1.0 wide from the runway. I can't blame it entirely on student pilots though since I've read here on these pages that some Mooney pilots don't think its safe to bank more than standard rate preventing them from keeping their Mooney within the FAA pattern guidelines -  sad . Truth is they have it totally backwards since its the long extended patterns that prevent a safe continuously descending pattern to the runway and instead the extended pattern is forcing them to pull back on the yoke so as to not get too low leading them to getting to slow in level turns.

[EricJ]

13 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I always giggle inside a little when I land at a field and a local pilot will say “you really gotta watch out around here.  It’s not uncommon to have 2 or even 3 planes in the pattern at a time.” 

Here’s a little clip of stuff just going completely to crap at DVT.  Sorta tried to get it all in time, not perfect but it’s there. My favorite is, at the end - after total chaos - the controller says “nah, just cleaning it up a little, you can keep doing T&Gs”

 

 

I was orbiting north of Carefree Skyranch during most of that episode waiting to get a word in edgewise so I could land.   That's me calling in at 9:36.   That's the only time I've ever had to actually circle or deviate while waiting for an opportunity to call in.