I want better/more brakes

[PT20J]

I find it makes a big difference if I move my heels up off the floor so the balls of my feet are on the top bar of the pedals. This gives more leverage.

[Niko182]

If you are looking for changing brakes, BAS has a totaled Bravo that they parted out. might want to check if they still have the calipers, and the full brake system.

[aviatoreb]

14 hours ago, Hank said:

Once the nose wheel comes down, I reach out a finger and raise the flaps without letting go of the throttle. This puts more weight on the wheels right away. Then I wait and don't brake until below 50 on rollout. This worked well the seven years I was based at an obstructed 3000' field, and I rarely go anywhere shorter except for the occasional grass field (which slows the plane much faster than asphalt or concrete).

I do the same re the flaps upon roll out.  You can even drop the flaps as soon as you flare - before you even touch down which just decreased the time of float - but I have decided that is a bit much...

For me 3000 ft is my usual go to dont worry too much length.  2500 is my high alert length meaning be extra sure to be sharp. not that I dont always - and below that - needs to be really special circumstances - like I really really want to go there - there is a good strong head wind, not much cross wind, etc.  I think 2200 is the shortest I have been into with this plane.  And all that said - I have practiced stops to down to 1200 - on a big runway.

[aviatoreb]

11 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

If you are looking for changing brakes, BAS has a totaled Bravo that they parted out. might want to check if they still have the calipers, and the full brake system.

Thanks.  Who is BAS?

Can we do that - just put Bravo brakes on a M20K?  I am guessing mechanically sure - so then it would be paper work.

Are the Bravo brakes different than the encore brakes?  I presume there would be nitty gritty details like doors fitting etc.

[Will.iam]

15 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Thanks for all the information.

Yes - yes - just fly the approach more on speed and I will never need brakes.  Yada yada - 

Yes I have landed on sheer ice so slick I didn't use any brakes at all - and the most dangerous part of that flight was the walk from the airplane to the FBO without falling down.

But a plane should not have crappy brakes.

Good brakes would require discipline to apply successively more pressure on landing roll out so as not to skid the wheels before the weight is on the wheels.  But that is not an excuse to just have crappy brakes.

I just go the plane out of annual with new pads and brakes bled funny - so the braking action was poor - which got me thinking - but even in top form my brakes are not excellent.  They should be excellent. Why aren't they excellent.

Do I really need to do the whole Encore mod thing to get the Bravo style better brakes - or can I just do part of that mod for just the brakes?

Or surely there is some other brake set out there and a friendly field approval.... :-/

I would honestly re-bleed the brake lines.  I have a 252 and my brakes are more than adequate so much so that I raise my flaps as soon as I touch down and raise the speedbrake to dump as much lift as I can before I apply my brakes and even then I have accidentally locked up the wheels before but it's definitely harder to do than when the flaps are still down.  I live on a 2600ft runway but we have damn near a speed bump at the 2000ft as a ditch and road went around the end of the runway before it was extended to 2600ft and now the runway has sunk where the ditch used to be making where the road used to be higher.  It's so bad on takeoff to the north you get popped airborne before you are at flying speeds so you get to touch back down accelerate and then rotate to fly.  But on landing I try to stop before the 2000ft just to save on my shocks and the pounding my wings take going over that bump. And I routinely make the stop, only on long or fast landings or close to max weight do I not stop before the bump, also doesn't help you are going down a massive hill to the speed bump so extra braking required to overcome gravity too.  If after doing a cheap brake bleed doesn't satisfy your demand for stopping power then I would look into the more expensive options.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Will.iam

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, wombat said:

All the discussion of if you *need* more brakes is interesting and may have some value, but @aviatoreb gets to decide what he does with his own plane and if he wants brakes that have generate more friction than his current ones, then I'm all for helping him accomplish his goal.

Thanks.  

I disagree with those who suggest that brakes any stronger than I have now would be bad because I would not stop any shorter, I should just be better speed disciplined on approach and who needs them anyway.  

I think my plane is kick ass and my brakes are week - so I want kick ass brakes.

Im not motivated enough to do it asap to go out and buy all new parts but I am going to gradually start trying to collect used parts likely from a part out plane, and put it all together within a year or two.  Pet project.

[EricJ]

6 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Thanks.  Who is BAS?

Airplane junkyard with national distribution.

https://baspartsales.com/

6 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Can we do that - just put Bravo brakes on a M20K?  I am guessing mechanically sure - so then it would be paper work.

It'd be a mod, many may consider it a major mod, so check with your IA.   Their opinion is the one that matters.

[Niko182]

5 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Thanks.  Who is BAS?

Can we do that - just put Bravo brakes on a M20K?  I am guessing mechanically sure - so then it would be paper work.

Are the Bravo brakes different than the encore brakes?  I presume there would be nitty gritty details like doors fitting etc.

I have no clue if the parts simply fit, but probably looking at the encore conversion would be a good start. You have a 231 but I doubt there’s any major differences in the gear and brake system between the 231 and 252, so if x=y and x results in z we can probably presume that y does as well.

paperwork however will be a different story. You’ll probably need to go to the fsdo and find a DER. If the gear and brake have the same part numbers between the 252 and the 231, using the encore conversion should make things a bit simpler.

BAS parts is a salvage supplier. They have a couple Mooneys for sale in parts. I saw an acclaim cowling, and a bravo fuselage and ovation fuselage, so I’d guess they have a decent amount of long body parts.

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

I would honestly re-bleed the brake lines.  I have a 252 and my brakes are more than adequate so much so that I raise my flaps as soon as I touch down and raise the speedbrake to dump as much lift as I can before I apply my brakes and even then I have accidentally locked up the wheels before but it's definitely harder to do than when the flaps are still down.  I live on a 2600ft runway but we have damn near a speed bump at the 2000ft as a ditch and road went around the end of the runway before it was extended to 2600ft and now the runway has sunk where the ditch used to be making where the road used to be higher.  It's so bad on takeoff to the north you get popped airborne before you are at flying speeds so you get to touch back down accelerate and then rotate to fly.  But on landing I try to stop before the 2000ft just to save on my shocks and the pounding my wings take going over that bump. And I routinely make the stop, only on long or fast landings or close to max weight do I not stop before the bump, also doesn't help you are going down a massive hill to the speed bump so extra braking required to overcome gravity too.  If after doing a cheap brake bleed doesn't satisfy your demand for stopping power then I would look into the more expensive options.

I get it - the concept of dont brake hard until the weight is fully on the wheels and flaps help - I do all that.  And home drome is special circumstances.  Stronger brakes I think could decrease stopping distance even if only full on near the end of roll out.

I usually have a fantastic landing.

Occasionally I dont.  Last month I had a pretty memorable crummy landing in Land O Lakes WI, on an IFR approach with strong strong gusty winds that had a strong side component and I elected to maintain some extra speed for the gust factor.  I think I over did it.  Wasn't a pretty landing.  I was happy the runway was quite long enough.

But all this is just my brakes came out of annual extra crappy this year - yes we re-bled 3 times now.  We now suspect that the new pads are not mated to the rotors - that the rotors seem upon measurement to have worn down past minimal spec (POH calls for .205 and Im down to .195) so we are ordering new rotors - but even worse - the old pads might have been shape molded to the bad rotors.  That will likely improve the situation a lot.

But in the long run - give me fabulous brakes!  Its not a bad thing to have good brakes.

My dad used to say (regarding cars) 3 things never to skimp on maintenance - tires, brakes and seatbelts.

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, Niko182 said:

I have no clue if the parts simply fit, but probably looking at the encore conversion would be a good start. You have a 231 but I doubt there’s any major differences in the gear and brake system between the 231 and 252, so if x=y and x results in z we can probably presume that y does as well.

Thanks for all that.

But now - the x y z stuff.....I read it several times and I got lost.  And I have a PhD in Math.  :-O

[EricJ]

4 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I disagree with those who suggest that brakes any stronger than I have now would be bad because I would not stop any shorter, I should just be better speed disciplined on approach and who needs them anyway.

I tend to agree.   

4 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I think my plane is kick ass and my brakes are week - so I want kick ass brakes.

I taught racing for many years to aspiring racers as well as teenagers in a driving safety survival school, which included a lot of braking technique and exercises, etc., to learn how to brake efficiently with whatever you have.   Having "adequate" brakes and having "good" brakes and having "kick ass" brakes are an enormous difference.   When you can have "good" or "great" or "kickass" brakes, it's always better than having "adequate" brakes, which is what I consider the brakes on my airplane.

4 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Im not motivated enough to do it asap to go out and buy all new parts but I am going to gradually start trying to collect used parts likely from a part out plane, and put it all together within a year or two.  Pet project.

While I've been curious about what makes Mooney brakes (at least on a J or K) so mediocre compared to others.  In previous discussions there have been fingers pointed at the master cylinders not being properly sized, which could explain it, but I don't know if that's really the issue or not.   So I've not bothered changing anything because I don't really know where the problem is.

[Will.iam]

would you have to get a field approval for the brakes as the encore conversion was only approved for the 252 not the 231?

[Niko182]

8 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Thanks for all that.

But now - the x y z stuff.....I read it several times and I got lost.  And I have a PhD in Math.  :-O

If your 231 gear and brake system and the 252 gear and brake system do end up sharing the same part numbers, from a mechanical point of view, you can apply the use of the documentation for brake system of the encore conversion to your 231, even though it technically only applies to the 252. From a paperwork standpoint, it'll be a lot more work than that, but if the 231 and 252 do share the same parts, you know mechanically it won't be too difficult to add the dual piston brakes. you'll still need to find a fsdo and DER willing to help you out, but the paperwork for the 252 to encore conversion should make it a little easier in the entire process.

  

2 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

would you have to get a field approval for the brakes as the encore conversion was only approved for the 252 not the 231?

 

yes

Edited June 10, 2023 by Niko182

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Aerodon said:

Erik,

The double puck caliber is mounted on the back of the wheel, so the mounting ring is 'mirrored' on the lower gear leg (spindle).  These are expensive, but can be found used.

Then the middle and inner gear doors don't fit. You might not have the inner door?

And I guess they change the master cylinder to change the stroke or pressure to the calibers.  

 

Don

Thanks for that.

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, Niko182 said:

If your 231 gear and brake system and the 252 gear and brake system do end up sharing the same part numbers, from a mechanical point of view, you can apply the use of the documentation for brake system of the encore conversion to your 231, even though it technically only applies to the 252. From a paperwork standpoint, it'll be a lot more work than that, but if the 231 and 252 do share the same parts, you know mechanically it won't be too difficult to add the dual piston brakes.

That's useful to know!

[aviatoreb]

Are the brakes different from the Bravo and the encore?

[Niko182]

3 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Are the brakes different from the Bravo and the encore?

I think so. I took @Aerodon 's comment on the first page. I believe @Aerodon, @gsxrpilot and @Parker_Woodruff have all done encore conversion. Paul isn't on here anymore but the other 2 are so they might be able to give you more solid details.

  

22 hours ago, Aerodon said:

The ‘Encore’ mod to a 252 installs ‘Bravo’ double cylinder calipers to replace the single cylinder calipers and that probably comes close to doubling the braking friction. 

 

 

[1980Mooney]

35 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Thanks.  Who is BAS?

Can we do that - just put Bravo brakes on a M20K?  I am guessing mechanically sure - so then it would be paper work.

Are the Bravo brakes different than the encore brakes?  I presume there would be nitty gritty details like doors fitting etc.

No. You can’t “just put Bravo brakes on a M20K”. Because the dual puck assembly has different geometry and mounting points, the Encore uses a different spindle assembly (lower gear leg) than the M20K. And the Bravo has a different spindle  than the Encore because long bodies sit differently than mid bodies. So some of the parts are the same and some of the parts are different. Look at your parts manuals. I think those spindles are chrome, Molly heat treated so that you cannot make any modifications – you need to find the correct part.

[1980Mooney]

31 minutes ago, EricJ said:

While I've been curious about what makes Mooney brakes (at least on a J or K) so mediocre compared to others.  In previous discussions there have been fingers pointed at the master cylinders not being properly sized, which could explain it, but I don't know if that's really the issue or not.   So I've not bothered changing anything because I don't really know where the problem is.

I don’t think many here realize that @aviatoreb has a Rocket conversion with 3,200 GW. That is already more than the Encore GW but Rocket Engineering retained the original J/K brakes in both the Rocket and Missile. The Encore dual cylinder brake did not exist at the time of the Rocket/Missile STCs. It’s just a lot more weight (and energy to dissipate) with brakes that were not robustly designed for that application. They are simply “adequate “…

[1980Mooney]

31 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Are the brakes different from the Bravo and the encore?

As stated previously the spindles (lower gear legs) are different. You either need to find some scrap (unlikely since they only made about 50) or pay the factory to set up for a manufacturing run of one left and one right…

[aviatoreb]

So what I am hearing - mimicking the encore setup is the only likely way to go since trying to get long body parts requires to many mods to make it likely? 

[aviatoreb]

47 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

I don’t think many here realize that @aviatoreb has a Rocket conversion with 3,200 GW. That is already more than the Encore GW but Rocket Engineering retained the original J/K brakes in both the Rocket and Missile. The Encore dual cylinder brake did not exist at the time of the Rocket/Missile STCs. It’s just a lot more weight (and energy to dissipate) with brakes that were not robustly designed for that application. They are simply “adequate “…

Thanks - I should have said that upfront - I was thinking that - yes indeed I have a rocket.  By today's standards I bet the FAA would have required more braking power.  Anyway rules or not - brakes are nice.

[aviatoreb]

Another thought -

When I was at Oshkosh a number of years ago - Beringer was promising an STC for Mooney - the more modern looking red anodized stuff - but now browsing Beringer's website I see no such STC.  I think there was a discussion on this forum on it at some point.

[Echo]

4 hours ago, wombat said:

'need' is relative.  None of us 'need' an airplane to begin with.

 

Would you add a cabin speaker?   

 

 

No.  Both my planes had them from factory.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

So what I am hearing - mimicking the encore setup is the only likely way to go since trying to get long body parts requires to many mods to make it likely? 

Long body spindle assemblies won’t work - too short. Other parts may or may not be the same as Bravo or others.

@Aerodon talked about doing this in 2021 - the thread below will take you to it. There is a comment that the master cylinders were the hardest to find  

520002-501