Engine quit on landing

[Ulysse]

Today, upon landing after a 4h flight, my engine quit on the runway.

The hot start procedure did not work and I had to prime a little to get the engine to restart.

The landing itself was smooth.

Both tanks had more than 10 gal of fuel, so it cannot be starvation.

I flew LOP at about 60% power and all the engine parameters were fine during flight.

Any idea on what could be the cause?

 

[mike_elliott]

What engine?

[Ulysse]

TSIO 360 SB

[smccray]

Did you land LOP?  Engine quit on roll out after reducing power?  I’ve done that by mistake in my J.  

[Ulysse]

5 minutes ago, smccray said:

Did you land LOP

No, full rich on downwind

[N201MKTurbo]

It is usually caused by your idle setup not being quite right. 

[LANCECASPER]

37 minutes ago, Ulysse said:

Today, upon landing after a 4h flight, my engine quit on the runway.

The hot start procedure did not work and I had to prime a little to get the engine to restart.

The landing itself was smooth.

Both tanks had more than 10 gal of fuel, so it cannot be starvation.

I flew LOP at about 60% power and all the engine parameters were fine during flight.

Any idea on what could be the cause?

 

I had this happen on a Ovation not once but twice (IO550 Continental). Not exactly confidence-inspiring to your passenger.

I switched to fine wire Tempest plugs and never had the problem again. The Champions, when tested after removal, had very high resistance.

[exM20K]

20 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It is usually caused by your idle setup not being quite right. 

...or an induction leak.  An easy way to troubleshoot would be:

Fuel setup:  slowly lean at idle; you should get 50ish rpm rise as you lean. If not, get someone with the right gauges and fittings to set up your fuel injection system.

Induction leak: Won't idle at the POH-specified RPM at all w/o quitting: pressurize the induction system with the outflow side of a shop vac.  I don't remember the induction side of the M20k, but on the acclaim, there is a big scat hose that goes from the air filter to the turbo.  That is a good place to shove the vacuum (pressure) hose.  Then hit the whole induction tubing with soapy water from a spray bottle and look for bubbles.

 

BTDT plenty of times.

-dan

[Pinecone]

That is not a hot start.  A hot start is after time enough for heat to soak the fuel system.  So about 30 minutes

[Ulysse]

7 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It is usually caused by your idle setup

So the idle behavior changes when the engine is hot? Because before takeoff, I check the idle and it is around 750 RPM.

 

6 hours ago, exM20K said:

you should get 50ish rpm rise as you lean.

My mechanics also suggested to investigate the injection system. However, I check this as part of the runup and i usually get 40RPM increase. 

7 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

when tested after removal, had very high resistance

I'll check this.

 

6 hours ago, exM20K said:

Won't idle at the POH-specified RPM

It idles at around 750RPM 

6 hours ago, Pinecone said:

That is not a hot start

I didn't know that. You taught me something!

 

One extra piece of information:

I noticed in flight that the cylinder #1 CHT was significantly lower than the 5 others: around 290 while all the other cylinders were around 340 on average. Is this relevant?

[MatthiasArnold]

I had similar a behavior of the IO550 at the end of the landing roll in the past (once the effect of windmilling by forward speed disappears).
Very rarely and at higher outside temperatures. Adding a small amount of throttle plus eventually a short engagement of the boost pump prevents the engine to stall. I suspected vapor lock as root cause..  Meanwhile the effect kind of disappeared (maybe because I simply add a small turn of throttle when the engine threatens to stall without really being aware of it ;-)

[mike_elliott]

29 minutes ago, MatthiasArnold said:

I had similar a behavior of the IO550 at the end of the landing roll in the past (once the effect of windmilling by forward speed disappears).
Very rarely and at higher outside temperatures. Adding a small amount of throttle plus eventually a short engagement of the boost pump prevents the engine to stall. I suspected vapor lock as root cause..  Meanwhile the effect kind of disappeared (maybe because I simply add a small turn of throttle when the engine threatens to stall without really being aware of it ;-)

You might want to get your fuel metering checked and set up correctly. This should be done every 100 hrs or so by someone who knows what they are doing. Goes a long way to keep this from happening.

[Ibra]

Was it a hot day on idle? did you had RICH & PUMP ON?

It may quit after touchdown as you roll on the ground? idle + speed deceleration?

Right after touchdown you will see it idling slightly lower than the setting in POH when parked/taxi or when it flies idle on higher approach speed (windmilling propeller)

As stated above, I would re-check idle & mixture setup 

[A64Pilot]

6 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

You might want to get your fuel metering checked and set up correctly. This should be done every 100 hrs or so by someone who knows what they are doing. Goes a long way to keep this from happening.

Find someone who specializes in this, average A&P doesn’t have either the tools or knowledge.

It’s not that hard, but most seem to want to take short cuts and only adjust one thing and not go through the whole procedure, but if you don’t it won’t be right.

I agree it’s quite important, also helps keep the engine from overheating in a climb too. Properly adjusted the engine starts easier, runs smoother etc.

[Minivation]

Ugh, I've had to deal with this issue with the Continental IO-360-ES on the Mod Works converted 201 I fly. After the rollout, I'd turn off into a taxiway and then the engine sputters a bit then dies. Not a common occurrence, but more likely during hotter days. Same thing with a Baron 55 I flew for my multi training (IO-520-C). My quick workaround is to hit the LO boost pump after landing rollout.

However, as others pointed out, the real issue is likely improper idle fuel metering. I'm not a powerplant expert but from what I'm aware of, the Continental fuel injection system requires some serious tinkering to get just right, and the average A&P doesn't have the proper equipment to do that as the tooling costs north of $2000 as far as I know. I'd recommend taking it into a knowledgeable shop with good Continental knowledge.

[Z W]

Your engine has a complicated fuel pump that must be set up properly, as others have referenced, using specific steps and special gauges and lines.  This is, as far as I know, unique to the TSIO-360's in the Mooney lineup.  We recently replaced ours and the local A&P could not get it set up right, even after supposedly buying the gauges required.  It did what you describe at first (die on roll-out).  After another round of adjustments, it no longer does that, but is not idling properly until fully warmed up, it stalls if you lean at all on the ground, and the fuel pressure is over spec at full power and higher altitudes.  Waiting to get it re-calibrated at annual in a couple weeks at a Mooney shop.

Continental publishes the proper fuel set up.  It's attached here as SID97-3G, which has technically been superseded by M0 (but seems to read the same), along with the parts of the Mooney service manual referencing how to do it.  You need a good A&P to work through all this in order step-by-step and set it up properly.

Note that when properly set up, the engine will "burble" and sound like it's going to die after landing when your roll-out speed drops enough for the engine to reach idle speed of 750 RPM, although it will not die.  To keep from scaring passengers, I leave the mixture out slightly which is proper for taxi and makes it idle better anyways.  Requires training on a go-around to always push mixture, prop, then throttle.  

SID97-3G - Continuous Flow Fuel Injection Systems Adjustment Specs and Instructions.pdf Mooney Service Manual - Fuel System Sections - 10.18.22.pdf

[jlunseth]

Many things we are taught during PPL about operating an engine apply to NA engines only, which is what the great majority of school planes have. For example, we may have been taught to lean in the climb, which works in an NA to keep the mixture from going overly rich because the ambient pressure is decreasing. The turbo wants to be full rich when at full power in a climb to keep the engine cool and the input pressure can be held to a full power pressure like 36-38” all the way to critical altitude; no reason at all to lean in a climb. The “full rich for landing” is another. During the descent on final the engine will not quit when too rich or too lean because the movement of the aircraft is helping the prop. But during the rollout when the help stops and the engine is on its own, either too rich or too lean will cause the engine to stop. 

The “make the engine full rich for landing” lesson we are taught is another OWT better left to school plane operation. There is no great trick to pushing two knobs in for a go around instead of just one. Haven’t heard of a pilot crashing because he/she had to push in two knobs.

The turbo engines need to be set rich to keep the engine cool. It does seem to be tricky to perfectly balance the idle setting and the full power setting. Paul K. can explain it better than me. But the pilot has full control over this problem. I operate LOP quite a bit. But whether I was cruising at LOP or ROP I make my final approach at a lean setting. There is a “perfect” point for this, which is idle rise. On the ground, with the engine at idle, if you pull the mixture slowly out, the RPMs will rise about 75 until they start to fall again. Remember approximately how far out the stick was and use that for your landing setting. I personally go even further, I will make my final approach at a much leaner setting and just put in some mixture immediately before or after touchdown. It is not hard to do. 

Changing plugs will help whether you are making your approach lean or rich, if the new plugs are generating a stronger spark. The whole point of a LOP or a ROP setting is that the mixture is harder to ignite, resulting in a slower flame front during the combustion cycle. Make the spark better and the mixture will ignite more readily. That said, if you are burbling during landing or rollout you are operating the engine too rich, which eventually is going to gunk up the plugs. Just find a better setting, which is one that is leaned out somewhat. 

Not to say there are not some more exotic engine issues that could cause a stoppage on rollout. But the most common one is just that the pilot was taught to operate a school plane in a particular way, and now is driving a different engine entirely.

I wish when I first started flying my Mooney that there had been someone around to tell me these things. One dark night some 13 years ago I was flying pattern practice. This was when the landing lights were still incandescent and drew a ton of current, more than the 231 alternator makes at idle, and before I had a good engine monitor that would tell me how bad the electrical situation was. I came in for a landing, taxied toward the little operations building my FBO had back then, and the engine stopped dead right in front of it. No battery left to restart. All the instructors came out and helped me push my “new” plane in. They had a lot of fun with that! Now we have Mooneyspace.

[RobertGary1]

On 6/7/2023 at 6:27 AM, jlunseth said:

Many things we are taught during PPL about operating an engine apply to NA engines only, which is what the great majority of school planes have. For example, we may have been taught to lean in the climb, which works in an NA to keep the mixture from going overly rich because the ambient pressure is decreasing. The turbo wants to be full rich when at full power in a climb to keep the engine cool and the input pressure can be held to a full power pressure like 36-38” all the way to critical altitude; no reason at all to lean in a climb. The “full rich for landing” is another. During the descent on final the engine will not quit when too rich or too lean because the movement of the aircraft is helping the prop. But during the rollout when the help stops and the engine is on its own, either too rich or too lean will cause the engine to stop. 

The “make the engine full rich for landing” lesson we are taught is another OWT better left to school plane operation. There is no great trick to pushing two knobs in for a go around instead of just one. Haven’t heard of a pilot crashing because he/she had to push in two knobs.

The turbo engines need to be set rich to keep the engine cool. It does seem to be tricky to perfectly balance the idle setting and the full power setting. Paul K. can explain it better than me. But the pilot has full control over this problem. I operate LOP quite a bit. But whether I was cruising at LOP or ROP I make my final approach at a lean setting. There is a “perfect” point for this, which is idle rise. On the ground, with the engine at idle, if you pull the mixture slowly out, the RPMs will rise about 75 until they start to fall again. Remember approximately how far out the stick was and use that for your landing setting. I personally go even further, I will make my final approach at a much leaner setting and just put in some mixture immediately before or after touchdown. It is not hard to do. 

Changing plugs will help whether you are making your approach lean or rich, if the new plugs are generating a stronger spark. The whole point of a LOP or a ROP setting is that the mixture is harder to ignite, resulting in a slower flame front during the combustion cycle. Make the spark better and the mixture will ignite more readily. That said, if you are burbling during landing or rollout you are operating the engine too rich, which eventually is going to gunk up the plugs. Just find a better setting, which is one that is leaned out somewhat. 

Not to say there are not some more exotic engine issues that could cause a stoppage on rollout. But the most common one is just that the pilot was taught to operate a school plane in a particular way, and now is driving a different engine entirely.

I wish when I first started flying my Mooney that there had been someone around to tell me these things. One dark night some 13 years ago I was flying pattern practice. This was when the landing lights were still incandescent and drew a ton of current, more than the 231 alternator makes at idle, and before I had a good engine monitor that would tell me how bad the electrical situation was. I came in for a landing, taxied toward the little operations building my FBO had back then, and the engine stopped dead right in front of it. No battery left to restart. All the instructors came out and helped me push my “new” plane in. They had a lot of fun with that! Now we have Mooneyspace.

At the Cessna factory they taught us to lean on landing because of this. Even though the poh says full rich it’s far too rich in the turbo engines. They said the turbos are set up to be extra rich partly to allow for go around a without the engine stumbling as the turbo spins up. Go around is 50% throttle then rich then full throttle 

[SMeestercpa]

I have an 83 M20K 231 the the LB engine, no intercooler or Merlyn.  If I don't have the mixture full rich on roll out, it quits.  When I first start the engine, I start it at full rich and then lean it for usually a 75 rpm increase for taxi, I figure it is better on the plugs.  Not sure why it demands full rich on roll out then?  

[PT20J]

39 minutes ago, SMeestercpa said:

I have an 83 M20K 231 the the LB engine, no intercooler or Merlyn.  If I don't have the mixture full rich on roll out, it quits.  When I first start the engine, I start it at full rich and then lean it for usually a 75 rpm increase for taxi, I figure it is better on the plugs.  Not sure why it demands full rich on roll out then?  

Isn't the procedure in the POH full rich before landing?

What's your warm idle speed?

[hubcap]

1 hour ago, SMeestercpa said:

I have an 83 M20K 231 the the LB engine, no intercooler or Merlyn.  If I don't have the mixture full rich on roll out, it quits.  When I first start the engine, I start it at full rich and then lean it for usually a 75 rpm increase for taxi, I figure it is better on the plugs.  Not sure why it demands full rich on roll out then?  

I have an 82 M20K 231 with the TSIO360-LB, with intercooler & Merlyn. I believe my engine and fuel flows are set up correctly. However, on a hot humid day, my engine runs better when not "full rich" on take off or landing. It prefers to be leaned a little bit.

[SMeestercpa]

9 hours ago, PT20J said:

Isn't the procedure in the POH full rich before landing?

What's your warm idle speed?

I believe it does say to go full rich.  My engine gets a bit rough when I go to full rich, but will cut off on roll out if not full rich.  I think the idle speed is around 900, but not certain on that.  I'll make a note of it next flight.

[SMeestercpa]

8 hours ago, hubcap said:

I have an 82 M20K 231 with the TSIO360-LB, with intercooler & Merlyn. I believe my engine and fuel flows are set up correctly. However, on a hot humid day, my engine runs better when not "full rich" on take off or landing. It prefers to be leaned a little bit.

Interesting.  Like I said, it likes being leaned a bit for taxi, but I've always gone full rich for take off.  

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, SMeestercpa said:

I believe it does say to go full rich.  My engine gets a bit rough when I go to full rich, but will cut off on roll out if not full rich.  I think the idle speed is around 900, but not certain on that.  I'll make a note of it next flight.

900 rpm is pretty high for an idle speed. I believe the spec for the K  warm idle speed is 700 +/- 25 rpm.

[SMeestercpa]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

900 rpm is pretty high for an idle speed. I believe the spec for the K  warm idle speed is 700 +/- 25 rpm.

Yep, I'm not sure..I'll check it next flight.