201 Windscreen & Cowl Mod Cost

[Huckster79]

I'm hunting an F most likely, a couple have had the 201 Windscreen and Cowl mod.  I'm assuming that's not an inexpensive venture.  How much do ya figure with install would one have into doing that to a bird?

[ArtVandelay]

I think it used to be cheaper to just buy a J than to buy an F and do the mods, now I don’t know.

[PT20J]

Is that mod even available any more?

[Guest]

Windshield mod is about 40 hours plus the kit.  I’d hate to even guess on the cowl mod.

[Utah20Gflyer]

After having owned a vintage Mooney for several years I’m not sure I would want to get rid of the super convenient access to the back of the panel.   201 windshields sure do look nice though!

[MoonFlyer68]

When I purchased my F model it already had the 201 windshield mod and there is no denying that it looks great.  Having said that, there are also times that I curse not having easier ability to access the back of the instrument panel.  There have been some that have done the 201 mod and still left very small access panels at the very outside corners.  while small and not ideal, I would assume at least some access is better than zero access.

[BDPetersen]

The small access panels are fairly convenient, I guess. Some access.

I’m reminded of when I flew my Bonanza to meet up with a peripatetic purveyor of Beryl d’Shannon mods where the speed slope windshield conversion was done in a day. Flew in at 162 kts, flew out at 162 kts. Sure looked cool, though.

[carusoam]

As Doc pointed out….

1) The windshield can be purchased new…

2) Install takes a week…. Of solid labor…

3) Some small sheet metal parts get replaced after the old window comes out… lots of finish details involved…sealant and paint etc..

4) Space for a new glare shield is then available…. To finish the inside

5) Don’t forget… the OAT gauge has better places to go, than through the windshield… (more dough)

6) If you buy an M20F with intent to upgrade it…. To M20J status… this is a great way to go.

7) The M20F makes a great forever-plane!

8) Make sure the STCs are still available… they are getting long in the tooth.

9) This usually comes up when the windshield is so etched with surface scratches…. It needs to go or get fixed…

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

I think the 201 windshield with two small access panels was from SWTA, and is no longer available. It's what is on my C.

The no-access windshield is from LASAR, I think.

[1980Mooney]

17 hours ago, Huckster79 said:

I'm hunting an F most likely, a couple have had the 201 Windscreen and Cowl mod.  I'm assuming that's not an inexpensive venture.  How much do ya figure with install would one have into doing that to a bird?

Are you asking for valuation purposes?

[Utah20Gflyer]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I think the 201 windshield with two small access panels was from SWTA, and is no longer available. It's what is on my C.

The no-access windshield is from LASAR, I think.

If I were to do the 201 windshield it would have to be with the small access panels, to completely lose access to the back of the panel is to high a cost for a primarily cosmetic upgrade.

[carusoam]

Wait a sec…

There are real improvements beyond looks of the fancy new windshield…

1) It is more aerodynamic… as good as mods get, without adding more power…

2) there is a ton of space behind the sloped windshield… room to put a headset.

3) If you have a big nose… it won’t touch the windscreen….  
 

4) The sloped windshield transfers less sound into the cabin…

Some ideas to help sell the project to the financial administrators… 

Only important if this is a forever-plane…

Best regards,

-a-

[Huckster79]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Are you asking for valuation purposes?

Yes... I doubt I would do any "Heroic" mods to a plane.  Mods-sure, but monstrous ones not anytime soon.  Just kind of wondering the approximate value of having had someone do it is vs ones that's stock... 

I'm not a big avionics guy so doubt I'll ever be spending 10s of AMUs on Garmin Goodies... So I like the look it gives them, but it's not a requirement either.  Just wanted some ball park figure of what someone sunk into it to get those two upgrades...

 

[carusoam]

Huck,

have you had the discussion of buying the plane with everything you want in it already Vs. Upgrading each device along the way..?

Each update has its cost +an installation cost… that can often double the price…

Some upgrades are better to do all at once…. Because other things are in the way…

 

Ownership takes planning…. A good opportunity for an upgrade comes each time the plane is down for annual….

it’s part of the fun!

The first year is tough… getting everything wrung out without anything expensive breaking….

If you get lucky, you have extra dough to spend at that first annual!

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[Huckster79]

44 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Huck,

have you had the discussion of buying the plane with everything you want in it already Vs. Upgrading each device along the way..?

Each update has its cost +an installation cost… that can often double the price…

Some upgrades are better to do all at once…. Because other things are in the way…

 

Ownership takes planning…. A good opportunity for an upgrade comes each time the plane is down for annual….

it’s part of the fun!

The first year is tough… getting everything wrung out without anything expensive breaking….

If you get lucky, you have extra dough to spend at that first annual!

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

Right... That's why I'm leaning more towards birds with the pricey speed mods done now, just trying to figure out what they cost roughly.  I get they don't really increase the price all that much- so trying to discern a ball park idea of 'free upgrades" that are included on a given bird...

I'm a VFR only guy right now, I've flown across the country several times in a 1947 Cessna 140 with just me, the bird and my iPad, so I'm not in immediate need of fancy avionics.  So I think I'll personally lean towards engine/speed mods/general appearance with a decent but isn't fully upgraded panel vs great panel no speed mods and in need of aesthetic upgrades.  

Not sure when I'll get around to getting my IR, prob sooner once I own a bird capable of it.  But still won't be day number one project.  So I think being I'm in a spot I can buy a nice bird but not one that is done everywhere as in Great paint, great interior, great engine, great avionics and nice speed mods or already a J.  Something in the mix has to give a bit... 

 I think for me a nice looking bird, with good engine and some nice mods will be the way to go.  Then once I get my IR, either decide to upgrade bird again, or upgrade the bird inside to how I want it.   I think Id rather do that than buy one with great avionics I don't currently need, and have to spend cash getting it looking good and the mods I want and by time I get my IR the great avionics are now "ok" avionics.... 

That's my rough plan that I'm thinking makes the most sense for my Current situation and "needs"...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carusoam]

Good plan to start Huck!
 

I took a similar route with my first plane…

It was IFR capable… (barely)

But, when it came time to train in it… I figured out what I really needed… ooops, my bad…

That delayed my IR about a decade….  
 

Today, I would be looking for a WAAS GPS in the panel…. With an ILS to display vertical guidance from the two different sources… 

1) Ground based

2) Satellite based 

 

For pre-flown avionics… find Alan….

Best regards,

-a-

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Huck,

have you had the discussion of buying the plane with everything you want in it already Vs. Upgrading each device along the way..?

Each update has its cost +an installation cost… that can often double the price…

Some upgrades are better to do all at once…. Because other things are in the way…

 

Ownership takes planning…. A good opportunity for an upgrade comes each time the plane is down for annual….

it’s part of the fun!

The first year is tough… getting everything wrung out without anything expensive breaking….

If you get lucky, you have extra dough to spend at that first annual!

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

 

2 hours ago, Huckster79 said:

Yes... I doubt I would do any "Heroic" mods to a plane.  Mods-sure, but monstrous ones not anytime soon.  Just kind of wondering the approximate value of having had someone do it is vs ones that's stock... 

I'm not a big avionics guy so doubt I'll ever be spending 10s of AMUs on Garmin Goodies... So I like the look it gives them, but it's not a requirement either.  Just wanted some ball park figure of what someone sunk into it to get those two upgrades...

 

Has someone set you down and had "The Talk"?!  Old airplanes, just like classic cars, are money pits.   You can spend a ton of money on modifications and refurbishing - but you are not going to get it all back.  Not even in this crazy market which is going through a cycle and softening.

Look at Controller - there is a 1993 M20J that has the Missile Conversion by Rocket Engineering.  (300 hp IO-550 transplant - a "mid body Ovation") - that was a $60 AMU mod 23 years ago - includes cowl but not painting so add more.  Today it would start at 120 AMU  - maybe more like 150 AMU if it were available.  The plane has speed brakes, long range tanks, GNS530W, KAP150 autopilot and the engine is a little less than 1,500 hours.  - they are asking $185,000 

1993 MOONEY M20J 201 MISSILE For Sale in Underwood, North Dakota | Controller.com

And there is a 1987 M20J also with speed brakes, a GNS430 (no "W"). a KAP100 autopilot, and the engine has a little more than 1,600 hours. - they are asking $155,000

1987 MOONEY M20J 201 For Sale in Clayton, North Carolina | Controller.com

The condition and equipment of the 2 planes is pretty comparable but the Missile converted J model has a better Navigator (530W). about 1,000 fewer hours on the airframe, better interior.  As you can see the plane with the Missile mod/conversion won't get 50% of the 25 year old cost of the mod.  (and nowhere near the current cost of the mod if it could be had - a small fraction)

If you buy a plane and make a mod and then have to sell, don't expect to get more than 50% for the mod investment (just like classic cars...)

You are better off buying a plane that is basically the way you want it - and then just spend a ton of money every year maintaining (easily $100/hours and climbing), insuring and hangaring it....oh and flying it (80 hours per year at 10 gallon per hour - nationwide 100LL averages $6.40 - that's another $5 AMU per year - don't forget oil changes, database and software subscriptions.....)

AirNav: Fuel Price Report

Here is a recent topic where someone bought a plane in 2021, spent a lot of money on paint, avionics, interior in the past year on an E but now has to sell.  I seriously doubt he will get what he invested. 

And BTW "10s of AMUs on Garmin Goodies." doesn't buy much fully installed nowadays - don't forget that they have to be installed at $100+/hour.

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[carusoam]

Huck,

I sent an invite from Don’s thread…

Don has a forever-plane that is getting some updates continuously….   
 

just lots of examples of pics and videos he has put together over time for his M20C…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

5 hours ago, Huckster79 said:

Yes... I doubt I would do any "Heroic" mods to a plane.  Mods-sure, but monstrous ones not anytime soon.  Just kind of wondering the approximate value of having had someone do it is vs ones that's stock... 

I'm not a big avionics guy so doubt I'll ever be spending 10s of AMUs on Garmin Goodies... So I like the look it gives them, but it's not a requirement either.  Just wanted some ball park figure of what someone sunk into it to get those two upgrades...

 

The ones with the 201 windshield and other minor speed mods might add a little bonus for the buyer, but price similar to an unmodified one.  The few with a 201 cowling are more rare and actually adds a few knots, so that might cost a smidge more to buy.  None of the mods is going to significantly affect the price like a runout engine, fancy avionics, or new paint and interior might.

[67 m20F chump]

I haven’t been able to find anyone willing to do the cowl swap.  The STC is dead.

 

[KSMooniac]

A 201 cowl conversion is likely very difficult in the current era with the FAA tending towards not approving anything.  If you have a good IA and friendly FSDO, though, you might be able to convince them it is a great candidate for a field approval if you lay out a sensible plan, parts list full of Mooney parts from a J, etc.  You need far more than just the fiberglass cowl, though, and it will take a lot of hours to accomplish.  Best to get a pre-approval before acquiring parts IMO.

I agree with the sentiment about buying as much of what you want in the plane you get vs trying to incrementally add things later.  That will give you the most bang-for-the-buck, albeit at a higher up-front cost, but it also might not be exactly what you would choose if doing things yourself over time.  Having said that, any (airworthy) Mooney is better than no Mooney, so figure out your priorities and then go shopping!  Find the deal-breakers like corrosion/neglect/damage, etc first and move on.  You should want something capable of IFR so that you can get an IR if you don't already have one as soon as you're comfy in the plane.  It will make you a better pilot, expand the utility of your Mooney, and lower your insurance costs.  I would place a higher priority on at least a semi-modern panel and autopilot, assuming the rest of the airframe is solid.  Paint, interior, windows, etc can all be addressed later if/when needed.  Speed mods are nice, but realistically we're talking a max delta of maybe 5-10 knots on an F, and remember a slow F is still much faster than driving everywhere. 

[Huckster79]

20 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Has someone set you down and had "The Talk"?!  Old airplanes, just like classic cars, are money pits.   You can spend a ton of money on modifications and refurbishing - but you are not going to get it all back.  Not even in this crazy market which is going through a cycle and softening.

Look at Controller - there is a 1993 M20J that has the Missile Conversion by Rocket Engineering.  (300 hp IO-550 transplant - a "mid body Ovation") - that was a $60 AMU mod 23 years ago - includes cowl but not painting so add more.  Today it would start at 120 AMU  - maybe more like 150 AMU if it were available.  The plane has speed brakes, long range tanks, GNS530W, KAP150 autopilot and the engine is a little less than 1,500 hours.  - they are asking $185,000 

1993 MOONEY M20J 201 MISSILE For Sale in Underwood, North Dakota | Controller.com

And there is a 1987 M20J also with speed brakes, a GNS430 (no "W"). a KAP100 autopilot, and the engine has a little more than 1,600 hours. - they are asking $155,000

1987 MOONEY M20J 201 For Sale in Clayton, North Carolina | Controller.com

The condition and equipment of the 2 planes is pretty comparable but the Missile converted J model has a better Navigator (530W). about 1,000 fewer hours on the airframe, better interior.  As you can see the plane with the Missile mod/conversion won't get 50% of the 25 year old cost of the mod.  (and nowhere near the current cost of the mod if it could be had - a small fraction)

If you buy a plane and make a mod and then have to sell, don't expect to get more than 50% for the mod investment (just like classic cars...)

You are better off buying a plane that is basically the way you want it - and then just spend a ton of money every year maintaining (easily $100/hours and climbing), insuring and hangaring it....oh and flying it (80 hours per year at 10 gallon per hour - nationwide 100LL averages $6.40 - that's another $5 AMU per year - don't forget oil changes, database and software subscriptions.....)

AirNav: Fuel Price Report

Here is a recent topic where someone bought a plane in 2021, spent a lot of money on paint, avionics, interior in the past year on an E but now has to sell.  I seriously doubt he will get what he invested. 

And BTW "10s of AMUs on Garmin Goodies." doesn't buy much fully installed nowadays - don't forget that they have to be installed at $100+/hour.

 

Absolutely agree.  I've owned my Cessna 140 for 4 years and have put all sort of upgrades in it, that I know I won't fully get back.  I didn't care, I wanted it and used them... I've changed out axles to solid ones, put in hooker harnesses, VG's, new interior, oddessy batter, etc, etc... So not technically my first rodeo, just a new one

I was more curious of the "value" I would be gaining by buying one with them done.   I would be at double my budget to buy one with absolutely everything the way I want.  So my thought is fancy Avionics are the least of my needs right now... And if IR isn't a tomorrow project buying one with fancy but less than cutting edge stuff in it scares me that I paid a premium for said avionics goodies only to have them unsupported a few year from now when I go to get my IR... And yea when the time comes I know its multiples of 10s of AMUs, we dumped 40k into a club 180hp 172's avionics- I was shocked how small of a pile of new goodies it was once installed! 

So I think I'm going to back-shelf fancy avionics as priority, I don't want one with a total trash panel, but I don't need latest/greatest... The other mods I'd like don't really wear out like the avionics.  So more than anything I was just curios like the missile you mention, someone who buys it gets at least a 50% value of those mods, what hand grenade accurate figures someone had into those type of speed mods and such that I'm getting a "value" on... 

 

 

[802flyer]

On 3/25/2023 at 7:09 PM, ArtVandelay said:

I think it used to be cheaper to just buy a J than to buy an F and do the mods, now I don’t know.

Keep in mind that there are other benefits to getting the actual J airframe, as compared to spending the same amount of money (or more) modding an F.

I have an F with most of the speed mods (cowl+windshield included) and it definitely looks sleek and goes a few knots faster. But it's impossible that I'll ever have a gear speed greater than 104kts in this plane, as compared to 132kts on the 1978+ J models. Sure, I've learned to start pulling power early in order to be slow enough in the pattern to drop the gear, but it stings when controllers call out to following traffic that I'm going cessna speeds down the glideslope.

Also, if you like the look of the shiny smooth wingtips of the J, make sure you avoid the 1967(ish) F model years because the blunt wingtips can't be modded into the nice curvy design.

Just a few of the benefit of the actual J model over the fully-modded F that come to mind. If I were considering spending money to mod an F model to J standards, I'd just buy the J. Otherwise, find an F with the mods you already want before buying, as everyone else has said. The impact of pre-existing mods on pricing will be minimal.

Our values are a little different, so I'm very happy with my F that has a nice IFR panel with passable (but not fancy) paint, interior, and many of the mods tossed in as a bonus; it was certainly cheaper than a J with a similar panel. But if you want speed mods aerodynamics/looks above all else, just get the J from the start.

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, 802flyer said:

Keep in mind that there are other benefits to getting the actual J airframe, as compared to spending the same amount of money (or more) modding an F.

I have an F with most of the speed mods (cowl+windshield included) and it definitely looks sleek and goes a few knots faster. But it's impossible that I'll ever have a gear speed greater than 104kts in this plane, as compared to 132kts on the 1978+ J models. Sure, I've learned to start pulling power early in order to be slow enough in the pattern to drop the gear, but it stings when controllers call out to following traffic that I'm going cessna speeds down the glideslope.

Also, if you like the look of the shiny smooth wingtips of the J, make sure you avoid the 1967(ish) F model years because the blunt wingtips can't be modded into the nice curvy design.

Just a few of the benefit of the actual J model over the fully-modded F that come to mind. If I were considering spending money to mod an F model to J standards, I'd just buy the J. Otherwise, find an F with the mods you already want before buying, as everyone else has said. The impact of pre-existing mods on pricing will be minimal.

Our values are a little different, so I'm very happy with my F that has a nice IFR panel with passable (but not fancy) paint, interior, and many of the mods tossed in as a bonus; it was certainly cheaper than a J with a similar panel. But if you want speed mods aerodynamics/looks above all else, just get the J from the start.

The early 201s had “blunt” wing tips as well. The only F models that cannot be modded with wingtips are the twist wing models, which ceased sometime in 68. 

[Bryan G]

ARI cowl Mod gave my Mooney a modern look and about 5 MPH. Here’s the breakdown:

Used (like new) Polished 201 spinner with 5 hrs on it from eBay, listed $2k. Got it for $1032 shipped

Top Gun labor: 11.5 hours, 135/hr: $1587.72

Finishing and painting: 7.5 hours/$60 in materials: $1103 
 

Total: $5035

I also went with the single tinted piece rear windows, all side windows were about $1500 plus another 12 hours install. No speed gain, but it looks very close to a J and the view is fantastic from the back seat. 
 

I wanted to do the single piece sloped windshield, but you’re looking at $10k between parts and labor.