No gascolator on my 1992 201 MSE, is that normal?

[Aerospace]

5 minutes ago, Aerospace said:

Awesome, I'll look now!

Nope, none of those are on the list.

[kortopates]

2 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

There is an STC to install a Steve’s Aircraft gascolator in older C models though.

A different gascolator sure, but certainly not for operating without one! But thanks, wasn't aware of the Steve's gascolator.

[Aerospace]

5 minutes ago, kortopates said:

BTW, There is no such thing as an STC or approved mod for removing the gascolator!

Thanks!

[Aerospace]

So my questions from the original post have been answered.

• No, the factory did not eliminate the gascolator on later J models
• No, there is no STC for eliminating the gascolator.
• Elimination of the gascolator is not even heard of on Mooneys.

Bonus info: The drain hole on the belly has to be drilled, it doesn't come with the hole when you get a new belly.

 

My "NDH" plane may have a hidden incident that is not in the logs. 

The weather looks good enough for screwdriver work tomorrow. I will let you know what I find. Thanks for the quick responsive help

[Aerospace]

43 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

All kidding aside, these parts are not easy to come by.  Safest bet is to drop the belly panel, turn off the fuel selector, cut the safety wire, undo the nut from the bottom of the gascolator( the fuel in it will spill out) grasp the bowl by hand twist and pull it down.  The plunger shaft is likely seized in the top mounting plate.  Before you start, trickle some penetrating oil down the shaft from the cockpit side.

The O rings and seals you need should be standard at any good shop.

Thank you for the tips.

[GeeBee]

I commend the OP for his diligence and professionalism. This whole thing however is very disturbing commentary on the state of GA. This airplane has been flown by two previous owners who did not read their POH let alone be trained. Worse is the number of A&P and IAs who signed this airplane off. Did they even use a checklist? Just really sad.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I commend the OP for his diligence and professionalism. This whole thing however is very disturbing commentary on the state of GA. This airplane has been flown by two previous owners who did not read their POH let alone be trained. Worse is the number of A&P and IAs who signed this airplane off. Did they even use a checklist? Just really sad.

At least he’s found this group who are knowledgeable and helping get to the bottom of it.

[Aerospace]

I dropped the belly today (about five or six 1/4 turn fasteners were missing), and yes, there is a gascolator there; see attached pic of the gascolator after I removed it and pushed it back on for the pic. I will drill a hole in the belly for the drain.

I removed the nut and the red can so I could inspect the screen and check for sediment. That went smoothly and all was clean.

I followed the M20Doc's advice with the application of penetrating oil and after a good several minutes of twisting and pulling quite hard, I was able to get the plunger to come free. Now I can drain it, but now it won't stop dripping when the plunger is down. Hopefully that will go away after I replace all the appropriate o-rings and stuff that were neglected at annual. I am also going to replace the mechanical pump and inspect the rest of the injection system.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Aerospace

[PT20J]

LASAR has a kit containing all the o-rings necessary to rebuild plus a drawing. https://lasar.com/seal-kits/complete-seal-kit-drawing-for-airight-red-51200-gascolator-airight-gascolator-seal-kit-complete

 

[Aerospace]

Mine is a 610015, not a 51200. But yes, I did check that out.

I bet the plunger seat is all messed up from being stuck for decades and now getting twist-ripped free. Probably best to send it to LASAR for a rebuild. Do they do pumps too?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Aerospace said:

Mine is a 610015, not a 51200. But yes, I did check that out.

I bet the plunger seat is all messed up from being stuck for decades and now getting twist-ripped free. Probably best to send it to LASAR for a rebuild. Do they do pumps too?

No need to send the gascolator out, with a little internet guidance you can fix it.    There are a few small O rings to replace and that length of safety wire to replace.  You already know more about it than your maintainer.

[N201MKTurbo]

31 minutes ago, Aerospace said:

Mine is a 610015, not a 51200. But yes, I did check that out.

I bet the plunger seat is all messed up from being stuck for decades and now getting twist-ripped free. Probably best to send it to LASAR for a rebuild. Do they do pumps too?

Yours is a 51250 read the label more carefully. 610015 is the Mooney number. 51250 is the vendor number.

[Aerospace]

9 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Yours is a 51250 read the label more carefully. 610015 is the Mooney number. 51250 is the vendor number.

Indeed it is, thanks.

[Aerospace]

23 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

No need to send the gascolator out, with a little internet guidance you can fix your it.    There are a few small O rings to replace and that length of safety wire to replace.  You already know more about it than your maintainer.

I'll place the order for the kit then.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Aerospace said:

I'll place the order for the kit then.

You need the -137 for the top of the bowl, the -010 for the plunger shaft at the top, the -015 for the bottom of the bowl and the -006 for the tip of the plunger.  These can be MS29513 series O ring as well.

Turn off the fuel selector.  With the nut bowl and screen removed, you should be able to carefully disassemble it, remove the pull ring to get the plunger out, polish the plunger shiny and smooth.  Replace all of the O rings lubricate them with engine oil and reassemble it, carefully tighten the lower nut and safety wire it.  Open the selector valve, pull the ring to fill with fuel purging the air, (a step your maintainer didn’t do) once you’re sure it doesn’t leak reinstall the belly.

Your fuel injector in the engine also has a screen which needs cleaning and two new O rings.  Search Precision RSA5 fuel injector manual for details.

 

 

[Phil EF]

Unsafe condition on so many levels.  How many other things were missed  on “inspections “?

[PT20J]

5 hours ago, M20Doc said:

You need the -137 for the top of the bowl, the -010 for the plunger shaft at the top, the -015 for the bottom of the bowl and the -006 for the tip of the plunger.  These can be MS29513 series O ring as well.

Turn off the fuel selector.  With the nut bowl and screen removed, you should be able to carefully disassemble it, remove the pull ring to get the plunger out, polish the plunger shiny and smooth.  Replace all of the O rings lubricate them with engine oil and reassemble it, carefully tighten the lower nut and safety wire it.  Open the selector valve, pull the ring to fill with fuel purging the air, (a step your maintainer didn’t do) once you’re sure it doesn’t leak reinstall the belly.

Your fuel injector in the engine also has a screen which needs cleaning and two new O rings.  Search Precision RSA5 fuel injector manual for details.

 

 

And, as the RSA manual says remove the screen from the inlet side. If you remove it from the other side, any loose junk in the filter can fall into the servo.

[GeeBee]

I would almost agree with you but for the fact that the POH says to drain the gascolator on preflight and after fueling. The previous owners of this airplane obviously were not doing that which means only two things

1. The never read their POH procedures which is beyond negligent.

2. The don't know what the purpose of a gascolator is and why it is important which means their basic flying education is beyond poor.

Then there is the maintenance people. Even if I did not have a model specific maintenance manual or checklist what mechanic does not know to drain and check the gascolator bowl on an annual? Would not the pull pin in the interior with no exit point for the liquid make you wonder as you checked the gascolator for sediment?

Anyone of the above people who say they did not know, need to either be re-educated or leave the industry because they are too stupid too survive. If it was intentional neglect, they need to leave or be hounded out now. Don't really care about their outcome, but I want to protect the public at large and my insurance premium from the results of their idiocy. 

 

[GeeBee]

What you are describing is a logical destination of outcome based aeronautical education for pilots where we create "pilots" and not airman, heck we can't even say "airman" anymore. But it does not explain the maintenance side of the equation.

 

[Guest]

On 3/20/2023 at 12:40 PM, GeeBee said:

I would almost agree with you but for the fact that the POH says to drain the gascolator on preflight and after fueling. The previous owners of this airplane obviously were not doing that which means only two things

1. The never read their POH procedures which is beyond negligent.

2. The don't know what the purpose of a gascolator is and why it is important which means their basic flying education is beyond poor.

Then there is the maintenance people. Even if I did not have a model specific maintenance manual or checklist what mechanic does not know to drain and check the gascolator bowl on an annual? Would not the pull pin in the interior with no exit point for the liquid make you wonder as you checked the gascolator for sediment?

Anyone of the above people who say they did not know, need to either be re-educated or leave the industry because they are too stupid too survive. If it was intentional neglect, they need to leave or be hounded out now. Don't really care about their outcome, but I want to protect the public at large and my insurance premium from the results of their idiocy. 

 

I can offer another possibility but still not an excuse.  It’s possible the maintenance shop took off the belly and did indeed service the bowl and screen and maybe even replaced a few of the O rings.  When I do one, before I safety wire it, I open the selector valve and pull the drain to purge the air out of the gascolator to be sure there are no leaks.  If they’d done this they would have caught the seized.

The OP’s instructor also missed the lack of a hole to sump the gascolator in his training.

Im just glad the OP is getting it addressed.
 

 

[Aerospace]

In progress update:

The old pump and gascolator are out, following work is ongoing

• Gascolator overhaul with kit from LASAR 
• New fuel pump installation
• New fuel hose from firewall to new pump
• Finger screen service & o-ring replacement
• New various camlocs to replace missing and wrong length units

[Aerospace]

Well the last two weeks have been a pain. The installation and overhaul work listed above is all complete, but the mechanic can't get the engine to start. After *we* flooded it and ran the battery dead, he has removed and double checked the magneto to engine timing, bench checked the mags, tested the condensers, confirmed that there is spark and checked the P-leads. He says it is acting like there is just no spark or that it's flooded. I'm thinking he may have missed something or gotten something wrong.

To review what work has been done to the A3B6D, started this with a running engine that had a dying mechanical pump:

• Removed magneto to get access to replace engine driven fuel pump
• Replaced pump and one old hose
• Rebuilt gascolator (made a hole in the belly panel)
• Cleaned finger screen and replaced O-rings
• Re-installed and timed dual-magnetos
• Tried to start but no luck, not even a little
• Flooded engine
• Pulled mag and bench tested
• Checked leads and condensers
• Charged battery
• Re-installed mag
• Confirmed spark exists at plug
• Tried to start, no luck

What do you folks think? Are these things that tricky?

*edited to not be unfairly harsh on mechanic about flooding and battery

Edited April 7, 2023 by Aerospace

[N201MKTurbo]

Whenever I've had that happen, I had the mag installed 180 degrees off. I wish I could say I've never done that, but I can't...

You can check by removing all the spark plug wires and remove all the top plugs. Lay one plug on top of cylinder 1 so you can see the spark. Turn on the mags and pull the prop through TDC on the #1 compression stroke and verify the plug fires.

If you don't remove all the spark plug wires, you will ignite any residual fuel in the cylinders when you pull the prop around. It won't kill you, but it will scare the holy bejesus out of you. It sounds like a shotgun. don't lay the plug near the spark plug hole or it may ignite the fuel in that cylinder.

If you see the #3 fire when you pull it through, it is wrong.

[Aerospace]

Great suggestion!

[ArtVandelay]

There’s 3 hoses on the left side, check they’re all clear, if not flooding will be common. If it does flood, full throttle, mixture lean, and when it starts be ready to adjust as engine roars to life.