G5 Garmin in lieu of gyros.

[Denis Mexted]

Hello all,

It's my first post here. I'm considering buying a M20F that's been hangared for 20 plus years in a desert like environment. 

I'm 53 and have been flying more or less full time since I was 19. I currently work for the airlines in Australia, and fly on the weekend my C180J. I have restored aeroplanes before so I question my sanity now. When I was 18 my dad and I pulled a M20C out of a paddock that had sat there for many years. It was fun way to get initial experience, although the obvious issue of aeroplanes sitting in the open for years caused pain. 

I looked through the airframe yesterday, and it was tidy. But the dash. Oh, what a mess. 

So my initial dumb question is, can two G5 flight instruments, stacked on top of each other in the traditional 6 pack style fit directly above the control column and the dash? Is there enough real estate?

Thanks in advance. 

Denis.

[AIREMATT]

What airliner do you fly? My C has G5’s side by side to match work.

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Denis Mexted said:

Hello all,

It's my first post here. I'm considering buying a M20F that's been hangared for 20 plus years in a desert like environment. 

I'm 53 and have been flying more or less full time since I was 19. I currently work for the airlines in Australia, and fly on the weekend my C180J. I have restored aeroplanes before so I question my sanity now. When I was 18 my dad and I pulled a M20C out of a paddock that had sat there for many years. It was fun way to get initial experience, although the obvious issue of aeroplanes sitting in the open for years caused pain. 

I looked through the airframe yesterday, and it was tidy. But the dash. Oh, what a mess. 

So my initial dumb question is, can two G5 flight instruments, stacked on top of each other in the traditional 6 pack style fit directly above the control column and the dash? Is there enough real estate?

Thanks in advance. 

Denis.

Welcome!  I have an F model, 1968, and they are slightly off to the right.  Not noticeable at all while flying.  They are great instruments.

Im not sure if they could be made to fit perfectly in the middle, but it would be tight.  Also, the other required instruments must be retained, so it depends on where they are too.

quick question… is there currently an autopilot?  If so, what kind?  G5s are fully compatible with garmin autopilots and have varying degrees of compatibility with others, however they cannot provide attitude to an attitude based system.

Sorry about the dark picture.  I was night flying recently and it’s the first one I found.

[Denis Mexted]

Thanks guys. A330 but don't hold that against me. Some days I pine for that 76.

I think that would work but I really need to get my head under that dash. On second thought looking at those OEM engine instruments, maybe not. Careful measurement required. At the moment the aircraft is about 3 hours drive away. To be IFR, at least in the States, would a G5 be all that's needed for course tracking, CDI etc. (I've never used a G5, and really very little modern avionics)  I'm thinking if you had a G5 HSI, you wouldn't need GI-106B, a more traditional looking instrument. 

It does have a S-Tec 40 I believe. I'm thinking of replacing with a GFC 500. 

 

 

[Denis Mexted]

While I'm at it. 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Denis Mexted said:

While I'm at it. 

Another good option is the gi-275.  They fit in your existing round holes, so less panel surgery.  They are a bit more money, but not terribly.  Both g5 and-275 can drive gfc500 or stec.  Gi275 adi and hsi can be put in (they have reversion in case one fails) and then you don’t need any traditional instruments.  If you use g5 for the ADI and hsi, it also has reversion but you must leave a tc, alt airspeed and vsi.

If you want easy, 2 xgi275s go where your existing adi and heading are.  Done.  You can remove vac pump.  If you’re looking for a super awesome panel, we can help you spend much much more and it will look like a Tesla.  Up to you.

[ArtVandelay]

While I'm at it. 

Somebody got carried away with a label maker?

G5s work with the stec.

First question, how much do you want to spend?

[Dick Denenny]

5 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Welcome!  I have an F model, 1968, and they are slightly off to the right.  Not noticeable at all while flying.  They are great instruments.

Im not sure if they could be made to fit perfectly in the middle, but it would be tight.  Also, the other required instruments must be retained, so it depends on where they are too.

quick question… is there currently an autopilot?  If so, what kind?  G5s are fully compatible with garmin autopilots and have varying degrees of compatibility with others, however they cannot provide attitude to an attitude based system.

Sorry about the dark picture.  I was night flying recently and it’s the first one I found.

So am I missing something? I thought the best way to go with just a nominal amount of cost was with the GI275s

[Denis Mexted]

Thanks for the replies guys. 

Somebody got carried away with a label maker?

Yes. It is owned by a long retired Doctor and firm family friend. While brilliant in his day in his job, I'm wondering with the labels if he was over thinking it with the flying. He did my medicals for the first 15 years, but unfortunately I didn't get to fly with him. I did laugh at the 'SCAN' label on the A/H. 

As for filling the round holes, it's not my preference. I don't see why you wouldn't get a clean sheet of aluminium, take it to the man and get him to cut new holes to suit. That's what I did for my C180. 

How much do I want to spend? Nothing but I want it nice. Partly because that's me but also if my kids and wife are flying it with minimum experience they need to be comfortable and confident in the environment. Who knows. I don't own the aircraft as yet and I'm trying to piece together in my head this very pivotal 'spend' question. 

The question of whether two G5's sit on top of each other is much clear. I'm still not sure why you would have a G5 HSI, and the round GI 106B on the same panel. The Garmin website shows a panel, maybe a C182, with both on the dash. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Denis Mexted

[Denis Mexted]

Ragsf15e quick question. Are those light rings in the ASI, ALT etc? 

I'm not sure whether the above would have internally lit instruments. I spent the three hours in the heat pulling seats and looking for corrosion. Apart from getting vertigo looking at the dash, I didn't pay much attention there. 

[ArtVandelay]

A G5 only has (had?) ability to handle 1 nav, that’s why you’d need a 106 for nav2.

[ArtVandelay]

…also if my kids and wife are flying it with minimum experience they need to be comfortable and confident in the environment.

So you’re going to teach your kids/wife how to fly in the Mooney or they are pilots already?

Your kids would probably prefer something like:


Do you need to add ADSB?
IFR (GPS) capability?

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

If you’re looking for a super awesome panel, we can help you spend much much more and it will look like a Tesla.

What he is saying is “We like spending other people’s money”.  

[Pinecone]

REALLY old school when you not only have and ADF, you have TWO of them.

Yeah, we could you spend some real money.

Another option is to look at the Aspen 1500.  Fits in the existing round holes, gives you PFD and MFD.

If you want to really do the job (and probably spend more than you paid for the plane):

10" G3X with EIS

G-5 Backup

GTN-750Xi primary

GTN-650 secondary (or go with a simpler nav/com)

GTX-345 transponder (ADSB Out and In)

GFC-500 autopilot

Either Garmin 350 or PS Engineering 450 audio panel

Optional - 7" G3X for the right side or panel mount for AERA 760

 

[EricJ]

12 hours ago, Denis Mexted said:

While I'm at it. 

It's an avionics museum!    You could just about charge admission there.

 

[AIREMATT]

9 minutes ago, EricJ said:

It's an avionics museum!    You could just about charge admission there.

 

Gee dad, is that what it was like back when you learned to fly?!

Where do you touch the screen to make it work?.

[Ragsf15e]

5 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

A G5 only has (had?) ability to handle 1 nav, that’s why you’d need a 106 for nav2.

Yes, the g5 can do only one nav sometimes… but if you have two navs with “digital” output, they can handle both.  I have an SL30 as number 2, and apparently that’s about the oldest nav that has digital output and can be combined into the g5, although it’s not currently hooked up that way.

[Ragsf15e]

6 hours ago, Denis Mexted said:

Ragsf15e quick question. Are those light rings in the ASI, ALT etc? 

I'm not sure whether the above would have internally lit instruments. I spent the three hours in the heat pulling seats and looking for corrosion. Apart from getting vertigo looking at the dash, I didn't pay much attention there. 

Yes, led light rings put in by previous owner.  They are dimmable and work pretty well.

[Ragsf15e]

8 hours ago, Dick Denenny said:

So am I missing something? I thought the best way to go with just a nominal amount of cost was with the GI275s

If you look strictly at cost, g5s are cheaper.  Depending on the installation, a gi-275 might require less panel work, but g5s are the “budget” option between the two.

[Ragsf15e]

6 hours ago, Denis Mexted said:

Thanks for the replies guys. 

Somebody got carried away with a label maker?

Yes. It is owned by a long retired Doctor and firm family friend. While brilliant in his day in his job, I'm wondering with the labels if he was over thinking it with the flying. He did my medicals for the first 15 years, but unfortunately I didn't get to fly with him. I did laugh at the 'SCAN' label on the A/H. 

As for filling the round holes, it's not my preference. I don't see why you wouldn't get a clean sheet of aluminium, take it to the man and get him to cut new holes to suit. That's what I did for my C180. 

How much do I want to spend? Nothing but I want it nice. Partly because that's me but also if my kids and wife are flying it with minimum experience they need to be comfortable and confident in the environment. Who knows. I don't own the aircraft as yet and I'm trying to piece together in my head this very pivotal 'spend' question. 

The question of whether two G5's sit on top of each other is much clear. I'm still not sure why you would have a G5 HSI, and the round GI 106B on the same panel. The Garmin website shows a panel, maybe a C182, with both on the dash. 

Oh sheesh, if you’re going for new panel, then just do a 10” g3x and one g5 and do the gfc500 now.  You can have the engine gages on the g3x too which gets you an engine monitor.  Approx cost is $60-80 installed.  You can get rid of almost everything else.

[Vance Harral]

Based on the picture you posted, your M20F is the same vintage as ours, with the early-J-style "6-pack" (actually 8-pack) round instruments panel.  Having just finished a dual G5 installation in our airplane last month, during which we removed a GI-106A CDI indicator, here are some tidbits for your consideration:

• First, yes, dual G5s will fit in that panel.  If you cut a whole new panel, you can do almost anything you want, including flush-mounting dual G5s, shifting them slightly, whatever.  If you don't, though, you'll need to slightly file out the AI and DG holes of your existing panel to fit both G5s.  This procedure is described in the installation manual, and isn't too a big deal.  But per the manual, if you oval out the mounting holes this way, you're also supposed to buy or fabricate a couple of aluminum plates to more securely hold the instruments, as well as installing a slightly longer capture screw in the G5 unit itself.
• Post-installation, we've realized the push/twist control knob for the lower G5 HSI is close enough to the yoke shaft that it's a bit awkward to use with one's right hand.  Easier if you reach over with the left hand, but that also feels a bit awkward to this right-handed bloke.  That's a very minor gripe, though - absolutely not a deal killer.
• A G5 HSI can only display vertical/lateral needles for once source at a time.  However, it can receive nav data from multiple ARINC-429-capable sources, via the GAD29B that is usually installed with it.  If you have two "modern" NAV/GPS radios (e.g. Garmin 430W or better), you can switch the HSI display between them, and/or display bearing pointers for a secondary source while showing needles for the primary source.  Whether or not this is a good idea is debatable.  Personally, I prefer separate indicators.
• On a related note, I kinda miss the dedicated OBS knob of the GI-106A we removed.  Setting an OBS course on a G5 HSI requires a "click-twist-click-twist" action, rather than a single twist.  People who only navigate using GPS waypoint sequencing won't care about this.  I only miss it because I'm old, and I like to pull CFI tricks on instrument students that require VOR navigation and/or OBS mode on the GPS.
• G5 vs. GI-275 is debated frequently.  Not a slam dunk either way, IMO.  My causal observation is that cost aside, guys with good eyesight favor the higher resolution display of the GI-275; while those not so blessed have a slight preference for the physically larger display of the G5, even though it has fewer pixels.

Hope that helps.

[rickseeman]

G5 is very small behind the dash. Almost nothing. GI-275 is very long.

[Keith20EH]

Love the dual G5’s. More gadgets to me aren’t better. 

[Fly Boomer]

16 hours ago, Keith20EH said:

Love the dual G5’s. More gadgets to me aren’t better. 

What is the bright green thing on the starboard side?

[rbp]

On 1/29/2023 at 8:47 AM, Pinecone said:

If you want to really do the job (and probably spend more than you paid for the plane):

10" G3X with EIS

G-5 Backup

GTN-750Xi primary

GTN-650 secondary (or go with a simpler nav/com)

GTX-345 transponder (ADSB Out and In)

GFC-500 autopilot

Either Garmin 350 or PS Engineering 450 audio panel

Optional - 7" G3X for the right side or panel mount for AERA 760

 

I have almost this panel in my M. 
and yes, I have a GNC-355 instead of the 650. 
and I have the GMA-345C *remote* audio panel
and the GTX-345 *remote* transponder 

and the 7" on the RHS

if I had to do it again, I would skip the 7" display (I rarely use it), and get the 650 NAV/COM instead of the 355

some folks swear by the PSE audio panel, and I have had them myself. but the only thing I use the audio panel for is to switch between radios. i don't need to take up extra panel space for two buttons. and in the mid-body, you'll appreciate it even more