Mooney Purchase - m20F sitting for 8 years

[MikeOH]

I'm going to throw in my $0.02.  I actually think his reaction is a reasonable one; he knows the plane has been sitting, he knows 'stuff' is going to get found, he knows Savvy is thorough, and....he's looking for a buyer that recognizes the first two and knows what he is getting into.  I assume the plane is priced accordingly.  No offense, but he may view you as someone that will take awhile to be super thorough because you don't want a project!  And, after finding a bunch of stuff, even if not significant, will want a steep discount or walk.

A related story: when I was shopping one of the A&Ps (at an MSC, no less) asked 'how' I wanted the pre-buy done.  Having never gone through the plane purchasing process I had no idea what he meant.  He explained, "Do you want me to come up with a list of things so you can negotiate with the seller, or just look for red flags?"  Your seller maybe afraid you're going for the former rather than later, pre-buy!

I'm not sure what your goal is, but mine was to buy a 'flying' airplane; I did NOT want a 'fixer upper' despite the fact I'm very mechanically inclined.  Do you want to buy to fly, or not?  I would have NEVER even looked at a plane that had been sitting for this long.  My FIRST criteria was how recently, often, and consistently had the plane been flown?  That criteria ruled out a surprisingly (or maybe not) large number of candidates.

What did NOT bother me was a high time engine assuming my first criteria was met.  That is how I got a good price; the engine was around 2100 SMOH and the plane was priced accordingly.  I was prepared to OH the engine at any time, and I'd still have been okay price wise.  Well, it's been over five years and I'm coming up on 2600 SMOH.

I'll get off my soap box, now...

 

Good luck!

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Yea so why do some believe this is a sitting plane issue? Sitting for flying wing corrosion happens the same. 

Not sure, but I would guess that, in some cases, "sitting" means no anti-corrosion measures were taken (engine or airframe) and no inspections to stop corrosion before it gets too serious.  Sometimes, "sitting" means rodents in the airplane.  IDK, maybe my imagination is too active.

[Schllc]

I have looked at a LOT of planes in the last 8 years. Many of them hangar queens. 
some of them like this, sitting and out of annual for many years. 
looking back at the ones I passed on I have seen some start up, fly off and be totally ok, and others that went down, (one of them, that I know of, literally).

from my very small experience it seems just as likely to go either way. 
What I took from the corrosion comments wasn’t that sitting is worse than flying, but if it was corroding when it was parked and eight years without an annual, lots can happen. 
that being said. The condition the plane was in when parked is also a real factor. If the guy treated it the way you would hope, there is potential for a diamond in rough, and even if you have to replace an engine and be a little upside down, a pristine interior and paint is no small factor either if the airframe is sound. 

I think you should follow your gut, do your due diligence, understand what you are getting into with aircraft ownership, prepare for the worst and hope for the best. 
If you feel good about your purchase with realistic expectations you won’t regret your decision.  The upside of having to rebuild the engine is you will have a solid engine to care for and build confidence. 
Lastly, airplanes are like boats, houses and classic cars, they are ALL projects to one degree or another.
Yes, even when new, I owned two brand new ultras, and they both had squawks and issues. 

[DonMuncy]

The problem with going with your gut, is that for a first time buyer, there is little gut to go on. When I bought my plane 22 years ago, I didn't know squat. I might have bought what I thought was a pretty one, with all kinds of problems. But I was lucky and ran into Don Maxwell and Jimmy Garrison early on. 

If you have been an aircraft owner before, you know a lot more about what to look for. If someone discovers Mooneyspace when they start looking they should be eons ahead of where I was.

[Pinecone]

I want two lists from a pre-buy.

1)  Airworthiness items.  Serious issues.  These are used to decide yes/no and possibly to negotiate.

2)  A list of all the little things so I have an idea of how to prioritize when and what gets fixed.  I expect any used plane to have a number of issues that are not airworthiness issues.

On the advice of my mechanic, I had the lifters checked.  The seller ended up paying for new lifters.

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Yea so why do some believe this is a sitting plane issue? Sitting for flying wing corrosion happens the same. 

The general wisdom is that in some environments flying gets it up in dry air and gives the spaces a chance to dry out, which may not happen as much if the airplane never flies.  
 

[Schllc]

32 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

The problem with going with your gut, is that for a first time buyer, there is little gut to go on. When I bought my plane 22 years ago, I didn't know squat. I might have bought what I thought was a pretty one, with all kinds of problems. But I was lucky and ran into Don Maxwell and Jimmy Garrison early on. 

If you have been an aircraft owner before, you know a lot more about what to look for. If someone discovers Mooneyspace when they start looking they should be eons ahead of where I was.

I meant after a prebuy and due diligence, it ultimately comes down to your gut.
Are you minimizing serious issues bc you love it, or are you over dramatizing small things because you don’t feel it?  
Your gut isn’t usually wrong, we just tend to all ignore it more than we should. 

[KSMooniac]

If you are still interested in the plane, I'd negotiate further with the seller.  If the plane is currently "in annual" then I would not do a full annual inspection again, even if you suspect it was pencil-whipped.  It probably was!  A pre-buy should look for the show-stoppers that will ground your plane at worst, or leave you badly upside-down at best... things like corrosion, un-documented and/or shoddy repairs, lack of records, etc.  The next phase of the pre-buy would look at normal but expensive items like leaky tanks, engine condition, panel equipment and functionality, and finally paint/interior/windows/etc.   

A plane that has been sitting for 8 years and overhauled 20 years ago = runout engine.  Period.  Lycoming specifies 2000 hours and/or 12 years, so that is their guidance.  YMMV of course, but for negotiating, that is a runout and should be priced accordingly.  If the seller insists it still has 1000 hours left, you're not likely to agree IMO.  If it had been flying 50+ hours every year, maybe he would have a stronger position.  You might get lucky and fly it for 10 more years, or the cam may crap the bed next month and you're needing to split the case at a minimum, or full overhaul at the maximum.  That is your risk as the buyer.  Perhaps after some period of time on the market the seller might negotiate with you to remove a cylinder at your expense...perhaps you pay his asking price if the cam and lifters are great, or he discounts it further if damage is found?  In this market, he might not entertain such an offer because another sucker is likely coming by shortly.

Don't fall in love with the plane...that is when bad decisions get made.  Maxwell simply calls it "being in heat" and he is correct!

[sleeper-319]

7 hours ago, Mellow_Mooney said:

and that removal of a cylinder is an advanced surgery that he does not want to do on his plane

That’s a pretty reasonable position; not a red flag. I also think it was a tactical mistake on your part to attempt to negotiate splitting costs on items before you know what those are. As a seller, I wouldn’t agree in advance to splitting any unknown costs from a mechanic of your choosing. 

 

[carusoam]

The biggest challenge today…

1) Knowing what a PPI is…

2) Knowing what it does…

3) Knowing what it doesn’t do…

4) Be comfortable with what you are asking for...

5) Know you are buying a pre-flown plane… that is priced like it is pre-flown.

6) AW issues are deal killers… make sure the PPI calls out all of the AW issues that are found…

7) Non-AW issues are probably baked into the price… unless they are a surprise to both the buyer and seller…

8) Know that it is easy to ask for the best PPI from the best resource…

9) what are you going to do with the squawk list you had generated…?  Does the seller know that?

10) Start writing a purchase agreement to cover what is going to happen, when, for how much, what happens when an AW issue is found, what happens next…

 

This one is starting to sound like…

1) We don’t know what we are buying…

2) We haven’t bought a plane before…

3) So we don’t know how to protect ourselves from the next actions…

What usually happens next…

4) If the plane is any good, somebody else buys it out from under you… while you drag your feet.

5) If the plane waits for you, nobody else buys it… why is nobody else interested in it…? Now you get nervous…

6) Befriend seller… share concerns… come to terms with what it takes to buy this plane…  what it takes for him to sell it… write it all down on a piece of paper… your memory stinks worse today, than you remember…. 

7) PPIs are the most imperfect tool… but, they are the best thing you have to protect your wallet!

If having Savvy do the PPI is important to you… and the seller won’t comply… guess what you did…?

It’s not the seller is bad, or evil… he isn’t interested in selling the way you want…. No surprise.  Next!

8) Registration

9) Insurance

10) Transition training

 

A fast purchase often takes a month to complete… especially if you have to fly across the country to see it the first time… PPIs are taking longer to schedule lately…

Build a relationship with the seller… there is so much you want to know about this plane… especially after you leave with it… 

If/when this one gets away… regroup, you will be extremely well prepared when you find the next plane…

PP thoughts only,

Best regards,

-a-

[Bravoman]

I’ll never forget the time I commented to Joe Cole how pretty a 90s something J model was that was sitting in his shop on which he had just completed a prebuy inspection. It “failed” the inspection and was rejected by the buyer due to advanced corrosion in the tubular structure caused by mouse urine. 

[Kelpro999]

 You should buy it and list your experiences here for everyone’s enjoyment. But in all seriousness, a plane setting in a hangar at altitude during a relatively dry decade shouldn’t have much “new” corrosion. Check a few problem areas everyone talks about and an oil sample then go for it. I did and haven’t looked back. 
Good luck to you 

[Mellow_Mooney]

Hello again all!

 

First - thank you all for your comments. I have read through every single one of them, taken notes and printed them out.

 

An update for you all...

 

The seller sent me a photo of where the airplane was stored before he bought it. The hangar was spotless. It had an oldschool ford, another aircraft (looked like a bush plane of some sort), the mooney in it. Stucco walls, clean workstation, electric garage opener... you name it... this thing looked like my dream hangar that I probably will never be able to afford. 

 

The plane was also stored and had tin foil laid out around the wheels... assuming to keep rodents away... which leads me to think that the owner took care when keeping it stored in the hangar and had planned at least to store this thing for a while.

 

Now for the fun part...

 

I am planning on flying out to see the plane tomorrow. To meet with the seller (who said he now has two other offers on the plane) and to fly the plane, inspect what I can and make a decision. The seller has been reasonable on some items I'd like added to the plane and what I want to do with the pre-buy... leading me to believe that he has good intentions at the very least.

 

NOW i have a question for you all. How much is a prebuy?

 

I was quoted 7k for an annual by a nearby mechanic and 3k for a prebuy (16 hours or so, an intense prebuy I believe to check all AW, Oil analyis, borescope, tubular structure/all corrosion possibilities, etc.). The annual he said was above and beyond a normal annual... and would take 56 hours to check everything on the aircraft. He said it is what he would do if it were his own. Prebuy would take a couple of days. Annual would take a couple of weeks.

 

I am not sure what the seller will accept or how long he will wait... so it is undecided on which I'll do. I would obviously prefer to do the annual... 

 

What do you guys think of what I am being quoted here? Is this a normal price these days? Reading online... I've seen consistent posts saying 1500 for prebuy and 3k for annual... so not sure if this is just thorough or if I'm being ripped off. 

 

All your help is much appreciated. And I will definitely give everyone an update after the weekend!

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Mellow_Mooney

[katzhome]

13 minutes ago, Mellow_Mooney said:

Hello again all!

 

First - thank you all for your comments. I have read through every single one of them, taken notes and printed them out.

 

An update for you all...

 

The seller sent me a photo of where the airplane was stored before he bought it. The hangar was spotless. It had an oldschool ford, another aircraft (looked like a bush plane of some sort), the mooney in it. Stucco walls, clean workstation, electric garage opener... you name it... this thing looked like my dream hangar that I probably will never be able to afford. 

 

The plane was also stored and had tin foil laid out around the wheels... assuming to keep rodents away... which leads me to think that the owner took care when keeping it stored in the hangar and had planned at least to store this thing for a while.

 

Now for the fun part...

 

I am planning on flying out to see the plane tomorrow. To meet with the seller (who said he now has two other offers on the plane) and to fly the plane, inspect what I can and make a decision. The seller has been reasonable on some items I'd like added to the plane and what I want to do with the pre-buy... leading me to believe that he has good intentions at the very least.

 

NOW i have a question for you all. How much is a prebuy?

 

I was quoted 7k for an annual by a nearby mechanic and 3k for a prebuy (16 hours or so, an intense prebuy I believe to check all AW, Oil analyis, borescope, tubular structure/all corrosion possibilities, etc.). The annual he said was above and beyond a normal hour and would 56 hours to check everything on the aircraft that he would do if it were his own. Prebuy would take a couple of days. Annual would take a couple of weeks.

 

I am not sure what the seller would accept or how long he will wait... so it is undecided on which I'll do. I would obviously prefer to do the annual... 

 

What do you guys think of what I am being quoted here? Is this a normal price these days? Reading online... I've seen consistent posts saying 1500 for prebuy and 3k for annual... so not sure if this is just thurough or if I'm being ripped off. 

 

All your help is much appreciated. And I will definitely give everyone an update after the weekend!

 

 

I will check my costs for pre-buy and annual for my ‘77 J that I had done this past summer when I get home from work.  I thought I had them on my phone, but must have archived them.  
 

The numbers you state from the mechanic above seem reasonable from my memory, but remember additional findings and materials will increase the annual $ number!  Mine was done at a MSC.

Edited January 19, 2023 by katzhome

[KSMooniac]

$3k for a pre-buy sounds unreasonable to me, as does $7k for an annual inspection and perhaps an oil change and no other parts/supplies.  Maybe those are modern CA rates?  I don't think you would need 16 hours for a pre-buy, either.  Are there other mechanics to choose from, and that aren't affiliated with the seller?  Perhaps you're getting taken advantage of since you're not local, but that could a bad guess on my part.  

[Mellow_Mooney]

40 minutes ago, katzhome said:

I will check my costs for pre-buy and annual for my ‘77 J that I had done this past summer when I get home from work.  I thought I had them on my phone, but must have archived them.  
 

The numbers you state from the mechanic above seem reasonable from my memory, but remember additional findings and materials will increase the annual $ number!  Mine was done at a MSC.

Awesome, thank you! LMK when you can.

 

Looking around elsewhere as well.

 

[Mellow_Mooney]

2 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

$3k for a pre-buy sounds unreasonable to me, as does $7k for an annual inspection and perhaps an oil change and no other parts/supplies.  Maybe those are modern CA rates?  I don't think you would need 16 hours for a pre-buy, either.  Are there other mechanics to choose from, and that aren't affiliated with the seller?  Perhaps you're getting taken advantage of since you're not local, but that could a bad guess on my part.  

This was a mechanic I found without the seller. I just reached out to the seller for a recommendation... will see what his comes in at. Calling him in a bit here.

 

thanks

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

$3k for a pre-buy sounds unreasonable to me, as does $7k for an annual inspection and perhaps an oil change and no other parts/supplies.  Maybe those are modern CA rates?  I don't think you would need 16 hours for a pre-buy, either.  Are there other mechanics to choose from, and that aren't affiliated with the seller?  Perhaps you're getting taken advantage of since you're not local, but that could a bad guess on my part.  

It does seem a bit high. However when someone from out of town wants you to stop what you’re doing for your regular clients and do this one time PPI for a client you’ll never see again, there has to be something extra in it, no?

[Mellow_Mooney]

Spoke to the seller's mechanic and he is charging 1200 for prebuy and 2000-2400 for an annual... much better in cost but doesn't sound as "official" as the other company. I think he's a mobile mechanic. 

 

He did sound like he knew Mooney's and that he knows his stuff but he is literally going to be working on the owner's plane when I get there tomorrow... so know they have a relationship.

 

Any thoughts?

 

[Schllc]

3 minutes ago, Mellow_Mooney said:

Spoke to the seller's mechanic and he is charging 1200 for prebuy and 2000-2400 for an annual... much better in cost but doesn't sound as "official" as the other company. I think he's a mobile mechanic. 

 

He did sound like he knew Mooney's and that he knows his stuff but he is literally going to be working on the owner's plane when I get there tomorrow... so know they have a relationship.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Base price for an annual at most places iv’e checked was between 2-3k, so that isn’t unreasonable. but I’ve never had one end up there….

I thought the 7k price was a more realistic expectation. 

[KSMooniac]

Personally, with 16 years of ownership experience and lots of owner-assist maintenance and inspection, I would be perfectly comfortable working with the seller's mechanic on a PPI so long as I got to participate and put my own eyes on things.  I did NOT have that view 16+ years ago when looking for my first plane.  If you're mechanically inclined, and if the mechanic is willing, perhaps you could "feel him/her out" and ask if you could participate.  PPI should look for show-stoppers like corrosion, damage, non-standard parts/hardware, etc.  It doesn't need to be a full-blown annual.  I would only recommend this if you could recognize issues yourself, and if the mechanic would help in that regard.  If you get past this point, then you could move into a logbook/records review and see if everything is in order.  Hopefully the seller has organized everything, and/or scanned and uploaded so that you could review that yourself before committing to travel and a PPI.

Clarence has a great point above too.  You're likely going to pay a bit of a premium to get some shop time on short notice with a shop/mechanic you may never see again.  Over-paying a bit is a better option than getting told NO, or come back in 5 weeks.

[Mellow_Mooney]

21 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Base price for an annual at most places iv’e checked was between 2-3k, so that isn’t unreasonable. but I’ve never had one end up there….

I thought the 7k price was a more realistic expectation. 

Do you mean 7k after it’s all been fixed or 7k just for the inspection work? 

thanks for your reply

[Mellow_Mooney]

1 minute ago, KSMooniac said:

Personally, with 16 years of ownership experience and lots of owner-assist maintenance and inspection, I would be perfectly comfortable working with the seller's mechanic on a PPI so long as I got to participate and put my own eyes on things.  I did NOT have that view 16+ years ago when looking for my first plane.  If you're mechanically inclined, and if the mechanic is willing, perhaps you could "feel him/her out" and ask if you could participate.  PPI should look for show-stoppers like corrosion, damage, non-standard parts/hardware, etc.  It doesn't need to be a full-blown annual.  I would only recommend this if you could recognize issues yourself, and if the mechanic would help in that regard.  If you get past this point, then you could move into a logbook/records review and see if everything is in order.  Hopefully the seller has organized everything, and/or scanned and uploaded so that you could review that yourself before committing to travel and a PPI.

Clarence has a great point above too.  You're likely going to pay a bit of a premium to get some shop time on short notice with a shop/mechanic you may never see again.  Over-paying a bit is a better option than getting told NO, or come back in 5 weeks.

The mechanics both said they’d love for me to be there when doing the work. 
 

Problem is the plane is 3 hours flying away, so I’m renting a Piper to visit it tomorrow and I won’t be able to take a couple of days off work during the week next week. Plus would cost another couple grand just to be there to watch the pre buy. 

[Schllc]

14 minutes ago, Mellow_Mooney said:

Do you mean 7k after it’s all been fixed or 7k just for the inspection work? 

thanks for your reply

I meant the base price for an annual is before any additional items are found. 
I suppose that’s possible, but I’ve never had it happen to me. 
Ending up at 7k when it’s all said and done is a more realistic expectation for cost of a completed annual. 

[Pinecone]

My recent first annual was less than you were quoted (in USD) with a reasonable list of squawks to work on.  Only a couple of things found during the annual.

My pre-buy was more, but I did have them pull the lifters (Continental), which was a good thing, as they were pitted.