Which way to go?

[hammdo]

On 12/23/2022 at 4:17 PM, Red Leader said:

Aside from fuel efficiency, I am mostly interested in knowing what I would be giving up by getting a M20R and selling my M20K. What performance would I gain, how much more fuel would I use, Is it indeed easier to fly? Renting a 172 in my area costs $250/hr for JUST the plane so I would prefer to learn in what I have. Also, it is said that it is best to learn instruments in the plane you will ultimately fly.

I learned in my plane and tend to agree. My IFR check ride went smoothly because I knew my plane and avionics well. Having G5s and the GNC 355 really helped. Know the plane, speeds/configurations, and avionics in your sleep will make a huge difference. I had the Garmin trainer for my GNC 355 and I practiced with it often- still do. My plane is in annual so it’s a perfect time to train on it again…

[Will.iam]

37 minutes ago, rickseeman said:

IFR training is by far the most miserable/demanding thing you can do in aviation. I did my training after work in the wintertime. It was 30 something degrees during my lessons and I always came out sweating. So what can you do to make it easier? Of course, fly the simplest airplane that will work. AKA Cessna 172. But sometimes that's not practical because of location, availability, etc. It's hard to imagine an airplane with more to do on an approach/go around than a 231. (I had one, loved it.) You are correct in your line of thinking that an O is easier. No turbo, no cowl flaps, no prop adjustment, (as long as it doesn't have the 2700 RPM STC). Everyone is knocking your instructor for making you do approaches. Assuming you already have some hood time, what else do you do on an IFR lesson? There is one thing that you can chisel in granite. Anybody who does their IFR training in an airplane more complex than a 172 is a better man than me.

I learned my instrument training in a twin engine jet. But i had imo the worlds best instructors and training the military. To quote Maverick it’s not the machine but the man and the box that will determine your fate. They also beat into you known pitch and power settings and what a coincidence even though we flew dozens of different airplanes, they delivered the same results when you inputted the same power and pitch settings. Everytime i was off the instructor would ask me what my known pitch and power setting for that phase was which highlighted i was not using them which was why i was off. They also hammered trim off the pressures always. They used to say you show me a student off altitude and I’ll show you a student not trimmed up. When you are coming down the ILS all configured on speed and trimmed for that speed don’t touch the throttle or the trim  until flaring for landing. the airplane wants to stay stable.  If you get high on the G/S you will also be slow just increase you descent rate and when you get back on G/S your speed will like magic be back to your target speed. If you get fast look at your G/S as you will also be low. Shallow your descent and as your speed comes back to target so will the G/S come back to center. It makes it almost like you could drop your crosscheck of one or the other and it will not be an issue of either airspeed or G/S path as they seemed linked together because you are not changing the energy inputted to the system nor trimming and the airplane wants to stay stable. 
if you are not stable at the start of the ILS then it’s like patting you head while rubbing your belly and chewing bubble gum. 

[A64Pilot]

Regardless of what the other advice your getting here is, if your not comfortable enough in your airplane to where normal ops aren’t second nature, automatic, your not comfortable enough to move onto advanced training yet.

You jumped into a complex airplane right off the bat, normal progression is much slower than that so it may take awhile before you are. I bet lunch many if not most of the gear up landings are from people that are a little in over their head, or some I’m sure are from old men who fly very rarely, and are in over their head, if your task saturated with aircraft management now, then your not ready for a whole another level of more work thrown in. But you will be given some more hours.

Keep flying VFR, you’ll get there but fly a couple of times a week at least, this time of year don’t push weather and do something unsafe to get two flights a week in, but fly as much as is safe.

You don’t need to spend money on “modern” whatever, your airplane is perfectly capable without it, you just need to get to a level where your comfortable in it. It’s like people who can’t fly instruments without an autopilot, what’s the plan when it quits?

In flight school I think we got 50 hours in Hueys before we started instruments, so we were 100 hour helicopter pilots in two airframes, and our only job was to fly, no other distractions and none of those 50 hours was in cruise flying from A to B with an autopilot. Army had learned over years and thousands of students that pushing someone into instruments before they were fully comfortable and competent resulted in many failures, which cost more money than getting them 50 hours in the airframe. It’s been almost 40 years so the 50 hours is from memory.

[T. Peterson]

6 hours ago, Red Leader said:

Excellent advice, thank you all. Yes, in reviewing my track logs, the time in the air was just over an hour - I was including my total time logged that day, which includes taxi and run-up, in my estimate of more than one hour. My instructor and I went through a half-hour ground brief of both approaches before departing and all turns and altitude changes were at his instruction. He had me do several maneuvers that don't show clearly in the track logs and was satisfied that I had good control of the aircraft under the hood. I have had much hood time (and some actual IFR) with previous instructors so, although this was my first official IFR lesson, I was not near as green as most first-timers. I felt I was ready to try an approach (or four) and believe I still am. 

One of the comments was why I found it tricky to manage if I already had 80 hours in my plane? Although a fair question, I was struggling to keep the plane straight and level while both monitoring the engine temps (which I do religiously) and understanding the Garmin approach setup. The GPS setup took more attention than I was expecting and as a result, it impacted my ability to keep perfectly straight and level. As a perfectionist, I a beat myself up over even a little bit off course or altitude.

But we got a little off topic. I am still wondering if I should purchase a non-turbocharged airplane (i.e. the Mooney Ovation) to simplify my lessons. One of you guys had mentioned that I need a better engine monitor, and you are very correct. I am having an EDM-930 installed (hopefully) in January which should simplify my monitoring methods. The plane I am considering has newer Garmin gear than mine, a KFC-150, as opposed to my KFC-200, a better engine monitor than what I have and an Aspen PFD. I just figured it might be simpler to learn on a newer and better equipped platform. Or should I just upgrade and keep mine? The pre-buy of the Ovation turned up lots of small items that will need attention, making the first annual likely to exceed $10-15k, but it is a newer plane with lower hours. 

I do not think that your choice of airplane should have anything whatsoever to do with your IFR training. You can learn in either the 231 or the Ovation!

The choice of airplane should only be a factor of your mission once the training is completed. 

I have a 231, but would have an Ovation if I could afford it. I don’t like flying where oxygen is required, but I do want to go fast. I have never flown an Ovation, but I believe it is faster than my 231 at 11 and 12 thousand feet where I prefer to fly. I am utterly uninterested in taking a single engine airplane over the Rockies so an Ovation would really fit the bill for me, but I have budget constraints. 

These are the kind factors that ought to define your choice of airplane, not your ifr training.

[Sportster64]

You say your ready to buy a plane that you know will need repairs.

but you are in a plane now that you know all the quirks and squawk’s  of.

so it would make sense to keep what you have as opposed to focusing your time fixing the ovation, instead focus your time getting the instrument in a plane you know, otherwise you could be spending the next year or so just fixing ovation mechanical or electrical gremlins in a plane that has current problems.

 

how extensive are the problems, and how much will they cause you to loose focus on what you are trying to accomplish, that is getting instrument rated ?
 

[Red Leader]

My most concerning issue with the Ovation I am considering was that the tail hook is bent and scraped. Although that is not a big deal, the pre-buy went on to indicate trouble with the linkages in the tail trim system (mostly in the tail itself). Other items were a noisy defrost motor, no paperwork for the new Scimitar propeller (including the updated weight and balance). Other issues were a missing cooling shroud for the alternator, worn or broken metal baffling, brake calipers needing to be rebuilt, leaking oil seals in the prop hub and on the valve covers, excessive play in the landing gear retract linkages, leaking fuel tank (can smell in cabin), all hoses are original, dry/rusty bellcrank, outstanding SB's, etc. Mostly minor stuff but lots of it. The price is good and even after all these items are repaired, still a good deal. My plan was to purchase it and let it sit in the shop a couple of months. As mentioned previously, I am leaning towards NOT purchasing this plane, even at the good price.

[Jerry 5TJ]

On 12/23/2022 at 5:14 PM, Rwsavory said:

The Mooney you should buy for IFR training is a Cessna 172. Seriously though, you should rent a suitable trainer rather than use a complex airplane for this. It will make getting the rating a lot easier and avoid wear and tear on your plane.

Another plug for using the 172 for IFR training is you can do 20 hours of the 40 hours of instrument time in an AATD, per 61.65.   Many flight schools have an AATD and it will emulate the 172 well.  

The slower, simpler 172 airplane and especially the simulator offer a better training environment than a Mooney.   

I find that my 172 IFR students on average progress more rapidly to the practical test than my Mooney learners working on their IFR rating.   The AATD is a big part of that difference  

And yes, of course you can learn in your Mooney.  It will probably take a bit longer.  In the end you’ll know your airplane and avionics better.  

[A64Pilot]

Most schools start you out in something cheap and simple, mine was 152’s but I guess it’s 172’s now.

Mine was a part 141 school meant of course to graduate multi engine Commercial CFII’s

After the 152 which was used to get your private you flew Piper Cherokee’s to get your instrument then then brand new M20J AT’s for Commercial. Somewhere in that you were supposed to get your CFII and instruct at the school, then onto the C-310 for multi engine

I changed their syllabus and didn’t pay for or get a Private license as I didn’t see the point and got my Commercial before the instrument as you have to be a rated pilot to get an instrument of course, so my first check ride was Commercial in the Mooney. I paid extra to fly the Mooney for instrument training and was warned that I should have taken the instrument ride as a private pilot, that now taking it as a Commercial pilot I was expected to demonstrate Commercial knowledge and skill of instrument procedures and it was a tough ride, intersection holding left turns etc. Who does those?

I had fun in the Oral though, always did

The Mooney, even a J is tougher than a Cherokee, having to remember gear and get to gear speed etc, plus if your high and a little fast it’s a whole lot easier to recover in a Cherokee etc.

The way the school had it set up going through different airframes was the easiest and ensured the best chance of success. I figured I was already a Commercial / instrument helicopter pilot and honestly didn’t like the Cherokee’s they flew like a truck.

When you bypass the going through different airframes from simple to complex you make it harder on yourself, of course it can be done, probably takes either more concentration and a better pilot or at least more hours to get there.

‘I doubt anyone will argue that instruments in any complex aircraft is as easy as a fixed gear, fixed prop slower and draggier 172.

Just may take more hours until operating the more complex aircraft is just as natural as the simple 172 was, then you can concentrate on instruments as opposed to other things

[Niko182]

I wouldn't make the change unless you want an ovation.

 

since you've mentioned fuel usage a couple times I can answer that one for you. My parents used to fly a 231 and made the switch to screaming eagle. The M20R and S share the same parts catalog and are the same airplane So it will have the same performance as the ovation 3. The 231 for them was a strictly ROP airplane. They burned around 12 gallons per hour to do 160 to 165 knots. In the Eagle, I burn 12 to 12.5 gallons to do 176 to 178 knots at around 10,000ft. I really dont think you'll be able to notice a difference in fuel usage. You might even come out slightly ahead fuel wise on the ovation. 

[Hank]

On 12/24/2022 at 2:28 PM, hammdo said:

I learned in my plane and tend to agree. My IFR check ride went smoothly because I knew my plane and avionics well . . . Know the plane, speeds/configurations, and avionics in you sleep will make a huge difference. I had the Garmin trainer for my GNC 355 and I practiced with it often- still do. My plane is in annual so it’s a perfect time to train on it again…

This was my experience, getting IFR training in my Mooney. Fly a while, learn your plane and avionics, flying and making changes should be automatic. 

Early lessons with your CFII should be to fill in the power setting table: climb, cruise, 500 fpm descent; 90 knots level, clean and with Takeoff Flaps: 90 knots, 500 fpm descent with flaps, and with flaps and gear down; climbs in landing configuration, etc. The full table should be in your book, you just need to learn the required power settings. Write them down and use them.on subsequent lessons.

You should be able to cruise, descend and land with simulated static failure, and with airspeed indicator covered. This comes from aircraft familiarity, why we say learn the plane and fly a while before getting serious about instrument training.

Good luck, study hard abd have fun! My own training ran October to May, complicated by an electrical failure that took a month or two to fix. 

[carusoam]

1) Get an Ovation… only because you want one.

2) Train in your forever plane… because it makes less sense to train in another plane, and then transition to your forever-plane.  It only takes one confusion error to make a bad day…

3) know that IFR training is flexible… you will bump up against your cognitive limits when given the opportunity…

4) know that your CFII can see your limit… probably before you can.

5) At the moment, you think using a different plane will somehow make your training easier…

Remember your CFII is controlling your cog overload lever….

6) Congrats for asking the right question…

7) Ask your CFII if he can dial it down one notch… this way you won’t have to buy a new plane…

8) Imagine buying a new plane… thinking it is somehow going to get easier…

and it does…!

Then Joe CFII dials the cog overload lever up one notch…. 

9) Are you going to be happy with Joe CFII then?

10) Let’s say you decide to dial up the cog overload lever yourself…

Try to complete the IR in 10days….

Fly each day… powering through the cog overload that occurs within each flight…

Come out the other end with IR in hand…

11) Do you still want an LB that you haven’t had flying for a year yet?

First year of ownership of any machine comes with many surprises… that won’t make operating it very pleasing…

12) soooo… you have a year and almost 100hrs in this plane already… that’s still pretty new according to our insurance people…. Changing horses mid stream, will definitely set you back further…

start back at the top… or….

Go O!

That’s just crazy talk….

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFII, did the 10day IR, in a C172, before owning the M20R… hit the cog overload challenge, each day, each flight, and came back for more…

There is soooo much to know, to get ready for, to practice, to repeat… to execute… while reciting FARs and procedures…

You Can Do It… in any airplane. It’s all about you.

I used the MSFS to practice procedures learned along the way… most of the IR isn't flying the plane…

Flying the sim isn’t really about flying the plane either… 

Real pilots do this in twin jets!!! (Go Will.i) 

Managing cog overload while flying in the soup is an important part of the training… because, in real life, cog overload can exist, in IMC… when you are set out, and allowed to fly solo… and later with family aboard… cog overload can be (pick a bad outcome )…

There isn’t anything more challenging than training for the IR…

Except going to med school while training for the IR….add some child care into the mix, just for fun…

Go use MSFS… see if you can bump into your cog limits at a much lower cost….  

Increase the weather variables until you reach your limits…

it’s fun being human…. It comes with limitations.

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

I should have mentioned that when you do your missed, you put in full power and move the mixture to full rich for the climb, cowl flaps open. When you level off you are going to have to remake your approach speed setting, which is my 24.5/8.8/2450. Once you do that you can leave the fuel knob alone again. You definitely do not want to put in any full power settings without also going full rich. I thought I said that in the prior post but maybe not.

[Steve Yucht]

My 2c as an Ovation owner who doesnt know anything about a 231: IFR training will overwhelm you in the beginning.  That's a given.  No one multitasks well. At best you can serially task quickly. Once you get the knobology of your technology down that will help tremendously.  Don't confuse the plane with the avionics.  You said your mission is "you love to fly".  That's your passion, not your mission.  The Ovation is great because I can go faster but if you don't want to burn 16gph ROP your not going to enjoy or realize that speed.  If all you are doing is flying $200 lunches, spend the money on upgrading your K with better avionics.  If you use your Mooney as a time travel machine get the Ovation. 

OK, for the controversial opinion stuff. Forget about GPSS during IFR training.  I personally don't use it and would much rather not.  Forget about coupled approaches, fly the airplane by hand from the final every time.  As you learn, the best way to overload your mind is for your CFI to blow up your autopilot on final. Don't get used to the autopilot flying down low.  This is your primacy phase of training.  The hand flying in IMC (or under the hood) you do now is critical to your development as a safe pilot. 

 

[Ethan]

The 231 is perfect for ifr and training. It’s stable, predictable and efficient. Getting a new plane will delay your training as you learn all of its warts and its new avionics.

I recommend, as have others, that in training, don’t set power at any more than 25” in cruise; then reduce your RPM to 2300 and shut the cowl flaps. Engine management at that low setting is a no-brainer and you will quickly find you can ignore your engine monitor.

Just train and earn your IFR, don’t worry about buying anything new. That will just waste time and energy better spent on training. 

I also recommend you learn to hand fly the airplane in IFR before touching your autopilot. 

I’ve flown my 231 over 1200 hours, a good portion IFR in Oregon, Washington and the intermountain west. I Absolutely love it. It is an incredibly useful airplane. Unlike an Ovation (also awesome), it is way better at topping the ice and weather because I can fly it up to FL240.

My opinion only, but your plane is great! 

[jaylw314]

On 12/25/2022 at 10:33 AM, Red Leader said:

My most concerning issue with the Ovation I am considering was that the tail hook is bent and scraped. Although that is not a big deal, the pre-buy went on to indicate trouble with the linkages in the tail trim system (mostly in the tail itself). Other items were a noisy defrost motor, no paperwork for the new Scimitar propeller (including the updated weight and balance). Other issues were a missing cooling shroud for the alternator, worn or broken metal baffling, brake calipers needing to be rebuilt, leaking oil seals in the prop hub and on the valve covers, excessive play in the landing gear retract linkages, leaking fuel tank (can smell in cabin), all hoses are original, dry/rusty bellcrank, outstanding SB's, etc. Mostly minor stuff but lots of it. The price is good and even after all these items are repaired, still a good deal. My plan was to purchase it and let it sit in the shop a couple of months. As mentioned previously, I am leaning towards NOT purchasing this plane, even at the good price.

You mentioned before that you have the K "dialed in".  I guess one question is how "dialed in" you are to the K?  If you are, changing planes at this point will be yet another delay.  I have to imagine the Ovation has a bunch of different systems that you'll have to unlearn and then relearn, as opposed to building on what you have with the K.

You definitely need to know your IFR trainer like the back of your hand.  If the K has a 530, you should be sitting down with the 530 simulator so you know what happens when you enter a hold-in-lieu-of-procedure-turn on an RNAV approach, and what to expect if ATC gives you the straight-in.  If you have a flight plan with an approach loaded but not activated, what buttons do you need to press if ATC gives you direct-to a different IAF?  A non-standard fix?  ATC changes their mind and asks you to return to your original routing?  Learning that stuff on the 530 just takes building on your muscle memory.  Learning it on a different navigator and autopilot in the Ovation will take restarting from scratch

[carusoam]

Does anyone train with the AP on?

Since all of our APs, from ancient to brand new, have been known to be miserably quirky at times…

This would lead to double training… with and without the AP.

Altitude hold is nice… but, in real life… you want to know you can handle maintaining altitude amongst all the other overwhelming details…

A well developed scan is an amazing skill to have, or develop…

Best regards,

-a-

[Red Leader]

Update: I flew with a pilot friend yesterday and did the same two approaches again with him but no foggles. I had been practicing with the 530 and did better that the last time. My landings were by the numbers and the most flawless as ever (and I FINALLY have a witness) - no autopilot. I am going to keep the K for now but ultimately aim to purchase a Bravo or Acclaim, eventually. By saying that I have the plane "dialed-in" I simply mean that I'm comfortable with the avionics and the handling and (usually) have no issue holding heading and altitude. It is a sweet flying aircraft, and I only was considering the Ovation because of the increased speed (down-low), newer airframe and lower engine time. The price was what originally caught my eye, but the grass isn't always greener, so, because of all the expert advice and well-intentioned opinions, I have decided to continue my training on the plane I currently own - for now.

...Then I will buy a Bravo.

[kortopates]

Does anyone train with the AP on?
Since all of our APs, from ancient to brand new, have been known to be miserably quirky at times…
This would lead to double training… with and without the AP.
Altitude hold is nice… but, in real life… you want to know you can handle maintaining altitude amongst all the other overwhelming details…
A well developed scan is an amazing skill to have, or develop…
Best regards,
-a-

Most of you got your IR in trainers or aircraft without an autopilot. But anyone doing the IR with an airplane that is equipped with an autopilot can expect to demonstrate its proper use on one approach. Same for an IPC. With few exceptions, like NDB approaches, the candidate needs to be able demonstrate use of all equipment.

That said, like everything else autopilot use is generally taught in stages, not introduced to fly approaches. For example, learning to use the FD and using it between approaches to help get set up etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[0TreeLemur]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Does anyone train with the AP on?

Since all of our APs, from ancient to brand new, have been known to be miserably quirky at times…

This would lead to double training… with and without the AP.

Altitude hold is nice… but, in real life… you want to know you can handle maintaining altitude amongst all the other overwhelming details…

A well developed scan is an amazing skill to have, or develop…

Best regards,

-a-

Recommend the Brittain altitude hold.  Just inaccurate enough with certainty to keep you on your toes.

[A64Pilot]

Surely it’s easy and safe to come up with an MP/RPM/Fuel flow that gives a 130 or so kt cruise, rich enough to be safe and yet not so much it’s fouling plugs? Just use that for training nothing says you have to or should be at high power? 

[T. Peterson]

On 12/27/2022 at 7:43 AM, Steve Yucht said:

My 2c as an Ovation owner who doesnt know anything about a 231: IFR training will overwhelm you in the beginning.  That's a given.  No one multitasks well. At best you can serially task quickly. Once you get the knobology of your technology down that will help tremendously.  Don't confuse the plane with the avionics.  You said your mission is "you love to fly".  That's your passion, not your mission.  The Ovation is great because I can go faster but if you don't want to burn 16gph ROP your not going to enjoy or realize that speed.  If all you are doing is flying $200 lunches, spend the money on upgrading your K with better avionics.  If you use your Mooney as a time travel machine get the Ovation. 

OK, for the controversial opinion stuff. Forget about GPSS during IFR training.  I personally don't use it and would much rather not.  Forget about coupled approaches, fly the airplane by hand from the final every time.  As you learn, the best way to overload your mind is for your CFI to blow up your autopilot on final. Don't get used to the autopilot flying down low.  This is your primacy phase of training.  The hand flying in IMC (or under the hood) you do now is critical to your development as a safe pilot. 

 

Perfectly said!!

Key to IMC flying is scan, scan,  scan!! Auto Pilot is for later and should never ever be allowed to cause deterioration of your scan.

When I was learning instruments as a young Marine at Whiting Field I was really struggling. An excellent flight instructor was instrumental in revolutionizing my instrument skills. He had never flown with me before but after reading my training jacket he correctly deduced my problem. My scan was weak. I was fixating on one parameter or the other and slow to catch a drift in something else. All the other instructors would just yell, “heading!”….or “altitude!”…or “Speed!” I would dutifully fix that issue while something else went to pot. 
As we were briefing the upcoming flight, this instructor said, “ Torrey, (we were on a first name basis, he called me Torrey and l called him, Sir. ) I just want you to keep your eyes moving around the instruments. DO NOT STOP to interpret what you are seeing! Trust me on this, your brain will do it automatically. What you have to do is keep your eyeballs moving!”

With that nugget, off we went flying. I worked hard to follow his advice, but would still fall prey to fixation. When that happened he would not shout or even point out the offending parameter, but would very quietly say “scan scan scan”. Of course I would immediately start moving my eyes and the results were simply remarkable. I went in one flight from dreading instrument flights to loving them!

 I have shared this story with many many pilots and I hope it benefits them as much as that outstanding instructor benefited me.