SB M20-345

[hammdo]

Same with software engineers -- I see so many companies hire young engineers and they come up with the 'new' thing -- which was nothing more than a rebranded 'old thing' - been there done that -- funny how the upper management thinks the old timers are 'outdated' and these 'new engineers' have the answers -- I watched that @ a defense contractor I worked for -- folks that had been there a while came up with a great plan and the management team shelved it -- then a 'younger' engineer came up with the same thing but branded different -- and it was the greatest idea -- the older engineers just shook their heads.  Doesn't always happen that way but when it did, it was something to see...

Old is new again as they say...

-Don

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Germany had a much better system, in I think 8th grade you “tracked”, some went College track, many went Trade School track, they worked with local industries but also regular school, by the time you graduated you were a Journeyman machinist, welder, electrician etc, and almost always had a job very often at the place you were already training at, if you were good enough

And I have read that culturally, the Trade School track is not viewed as “less than” the college track.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

And I have read that culturally, the Trade School track is not viewed as “less than” the college track.

It’s too bad that the trades in general aren’t viewed better.  Even a billionaire computer designer needs a lowly plumber willing to stick his hand in his toilet.

[Shadrach]

37 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

And I have read that culturally, the Trade School track is not viewed as “less than” the college track.

It’s coming full circle. In my 30s many of my “educated” peers had reason to see other people’s tax returns for professional reasons. Most were shocked to see what a successful tradesman was making with no student loans.

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

It’s too bad that the trades in general aren’t viewed better.  Even a billionaire computer designer needs a lowly plumber willing to stick his hand in his toilet.

True. But they pay for it. I’ve seen a fair mount of blue collar “revenge” in the real world. Ignorance has a cost and many white collar pros have no idea what their ignorance is costing them.

[Raymond J1]

This haughty vision of technical professions, if it exists, is a good thing for our Mooney, especially to remanufacture a very small rudder counterweight, i.e. 3 hours of milling (instead of the lead foundry) and 1 hour to adjust the tungsten load.

[Shadrach]

3 minutes ago, Raymond J said:

This haughty vision of technical professions, if it exists, is a good thing for our Mooney, especially to remanufacture a very small rudder counterweight, i.e. 3 hours of milling (instead of the lead foundry) and 1 hour to adjust the tungsten load.

True. I wonder if my local machine shop is able/willing to mill lead in their CNC machines.

[Guest]

Most early builders of Van’s Aircraft designs had to cast their own flight control weights.  I made mine from recycling lead wheel weights on a Coleman stove outside.

[Fly Boomer]

29 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

It’s too bad that the trades in general aren’t viewed better.  Even a billionaire computer designer needs a lowly plumber willing to stick his hand in his toilet.

And the fact is, the computer designer couldn’t do many of the things a “lowly” tradesman under any circumstances.

[Fly Boomer]

31 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

It’s coming full circle. In my 30s many of my “educated” peers had reason to see other people’s tax returns for professional reasons. Most were shocked to see what a successful tradesman was making with no student loans.

Good life lesson.  I once hired a sheet rock guy to do some work for me on a house in the “poor” county, and discovered that he lived in one of the ritziest cities in the “rich” county.

[A64Pilot]

18 hours ago, PT20J said:

Seems like it wouldn’t be that difficult to make a wooden pattern by copying a good one. I wonder how hard it would be to find a small foundry to sand cast them for an OPP?

Wouldn’t be hard at all. I’d make it out of wax, investment cast it, then melt the wax out and pour it with lead. You don’t have a reusable mold that way though, but you could by using impression material of the original wax piece, then you could pour as many wax copies as you wanted.

That’s how I made inlays, crowns, etc in my Father’s Dental lab as a kid.

So far as casting lead, it’s no big deal at all, just do it in open air, people have been casting lead bullets forever. All it takes is a pot and a propane torch. Not too many years ago sanitary pipes were joined with molten lead, so plumbers worked with it daily.

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

And I have read that culturally, the Trade School track is not viewed as “less than” the college track.

It’s not, what truly confused the Germans was that we paid CEO’s CFO’s etc. so highly, there a talented Engineer was very highly paid

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

True. I wonder if my local machine shop is able/willing to mill lead in their CNC machines.

I think unalloyed lead is so soft that it doesn’t machine worth a crap, even drilling it doesn’t work well, it smears on tooling

[ilovecornfields]

9 hours ago, PT20J said:

This place was a lot of fun when I lived in the SF Bay area. https://www.thecrucible.org

That’s where I learned how to use a mig welder!

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Wouldn’t be hard at all. I’d make it out of wax, investment cast it, then melt the wax out and pour it with lead. You don’t have a reusable mold that way though, but you could by using impression material of the original wax piece, then you could pour as many wax copies as you wanted.

That’s how I made inlays, crowns, etc in my Father’s Dental lab as a kid.

So far as casting lead, it’s no big deal at all, just do it in open air, people have been casting lead bullets forever. All it takes is a pot and a propane torch. Not too many years ago sanitary pipes were joined with molten lead, so plumbers worked with it daily.

Not too many years ago, the pipes were lead.

[M20F]

JB Weld 

[carusoam]

How many MSers have melted lead?

1) Where did you get the Pb?

2) How did you melt it?

It was really easy as a Boy Scout…

1) Collect bullet fragments from the rifle range while earning the merit badge…

2) Take home to the wood burning stove…

3) put the lead bits in aluminum foil… and heat.

4) It was easy to learn about the melting points of various materials with a fire place… 

 

Going to the next steps…

Casting and making an investment casting type mold…. Probably a great use of 3D printing.

Shop class was a requirement to graduate from Jr. Highschool… everyone carved an investment casting mold/die (?) out of styrofoam (tm)… both the girls and boys got this experience… as well as cooking.

melted aluminum, and poured it into the runner/mold… that was surrounded by oily sand/clay….

 

The casting is a mild starting point… finishing takes some level of basic machining…grinding, finishing… with an eye on final weight…

To best determine what the alloy is… find an oil analysis shop that tests various metals… or a metal shop that does this as well…

 

We have seen some pretty banged up counterweights around here… they aren’t incredibly hard materials…

It is still probably easier to find a pre-flown one in the wild, than to make one yourself… with a mechanic…

PP guesses only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[bcg]

22 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I had a similar experience. We weren’t allowed to touch the crucible either.  I could run a reasonable bead with a stick welder after several weeks.  We did some electronics (circuits, capacitors, AC vs DC) and technical drawing as well. Looking back, it was a pretty sophisticated resource for middle school. Even in Texas, people made jokes about taking “shop”.

I learned my most useful life skills and lessons in shop classes.  Without them, I wouldn't be who or where I am today.

[A64Pilot]

My Wife teaches Middle School. There haven’t been shop classes or Home Ec classes in a very long time.

History has also changed greatly, apparently what we were taught was wrong.

What is being taught is well, scary to me. I’d advise if you have kids, or even Grandchildren to get involved, learn what’s being taught and how and make your own opinions, don’t listen to me or others.

Then decide what if anything you should do, but learn for yourself.

[David Lloyd]

What was the purpose of the hybrid weights?  Is that a piece of steel in the lead casting?  Were they trying to make the counterbalance lighter?  Did they change springs on the F or add something else?

[EricJ]

58 minutes ago, David Lloyd said:

What was the purpose of the hybrid weights?  Is that a piece of steel in the lead casting?  Were they trying to make the counterbalance lighter?  Did they change springs on the F or add something else?

I can't think of a reason other than they needed a different density to adjust the balance and that's how they did it.   

[DCarlton]

A bit of a tangent, but how are the weights attached?   They look like big steel rivets.  Mine have a tad of corrosion so I’m assuming steel.  Wondering how those get squeezed or pounded.  I don’t think I saw the fasteners in the parts manual.  

[Shadrach]

22 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

A bit of a tangent, but how are the weights attached?   They look like big steel rivets.  Mine have a tad of corrosion so I’m assuming steel.  Wondering how those get squeezed or pounded.  I don’t think I saw the fasteners in the parts manual.  

I would assumed bolts, fasteners aren’t shown in IPC. Riveting lead seems like a bad idea.

[DCarlton]

21 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I would assumed bolts, fasteners aren’t shown in IPC. Riveting lead seems like a bad idea.

I'll take a pic of mine.  Don't remember them being bolt or screw like at all.  

[jamesm]

am I reading the SB correctly .... If you have the hybrid center plug type elevator counter weights with any crack formation on them you are grounded.  so this SB only identifies the problem but has no solution/resolution ?

Thanks in advance,

James '67C