bcg Posted August 27, 2022 Report Share Posted August 27, 2022 OK guys, I need some feedback on avionics upgrades. I know a little bit about the options but, I'm far from what I would consider knowledgeable, please forgive any stupid questions. For background, I just bought a 63 C with a G5, King KLN90B, S-Tec 50 dual axis with altitude hold, Icom radio for Com 1 and an older Narco for Com 2 and Nav. Everything is functional and really already adequate but, there are a few things I would like to have. First is an electronic engine monitor, I've been thinking an EDM900. I also would like to replace the Gyro compass with an HSI, right now I'm thinking another G5 and lastly, I would like to have a more modern GPS with moving maps and VNAV support, ideally showing a glide scope on the PFD. I've been considering a used GNS430 for the GPS, mostly because of cost. When I add all this up though, I'm coming to somewhere between $16k -$17k just for the hardware. I've got a neighbor that's an A&P and will help/supervise me installing the EDM900 for $1,000, neither of use really know the Garmin stuff well enough to feel comfortable tackling that though, so I'd need to get someone to help with that which I'm guessing would run me another $4k or so, putting my total somewhere in the neighborhood of $20k - $25k. So my first question is, do my numbers seem reasonable? If so, that brings me to question 2, if I'm going to be spending this much money, is this really the best path to take or could I do something that will be more integrated and elegant for the same money, or just a little bit more? I'm not married to Garmin, a lot of the other options look to actually be better values so, I'm open to anything really. The only hard line is that I'm not looking to replace the AP so whatever I do needs to be able to work with it. Also, this isn't intended to be a forever plane, the plan right now is to fly this for a few years and get 300 - 500 hours in it and then move into a 252 or a Bravo so, I'd like to not spend a ton of money on upgrades that I'm not going to get back when it's time to move on. Of course, in the meantime I'm the one flying the plane and there is value in having a panel I'm really happy with even if it doesn't all come back when it's time to sell. So, what say you guys? How would you spend my money on this panel? Thanks in advance for any feedback, I'm looking forward to hearing what you folks come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted August 27, 2022 Report Share Posted August 27, 2022 300 to 500 hours will be done in like 2 years. If you plan to upgrade, take that money you were gonna spend and save it for the bravo or 252 2 years down the line. Avionics upgrades like that arent worth it for a plane youre owning that short. Just throw an insight g2 in there for the engine monitor and call it a day. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted August 27, 2022 Report Share Posted August 27, 2022 Looking at the panel I think you’re going to find a mess of wires behind it. I’d personally fly it like it is. If you decide to open it up at the very the least make two new panels, clean up all the wires, add a g5, complete the package with a Garmin 175 navigator. Are you sure that’s not an HSI currently installed in the panel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcg Posted August 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2022 26 minutes ago, MIm20c said: Are you sure that’s not an HSI currently installed in the panel? Which part, the gyro compass? It does connect to the GPS and move the needle to the side like a digital HSI but, it precepts and I'd like to not have to deal with that. That part is mostly laziness on my part, I'd just like to have one less thing to deal with in flight. Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcg Posted August 27, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2022 2 hours ago, Niko182 said: 300 to 500 hours will be done in like 2 years. If you plan to upgrade, take that money you were gonna spend and save it for the bravo or 252 2 years down the line. Avionics upgrades like that arent worth it for a plane youre owning that short. Just throw an insight g2 in there for the engine monitor and call it a day. Can I use the G2 as primary and remove the existing gauges? You're probably right about not doing too much with it, I have a tendency to want to overimprove things, I like nice stuff. The flip side is that when the time does come to sell, it'll move faster with updated avionics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201Mooniac Posted August 28, 2022 Report Share Posted August 28, 2022 No, the Insight G2 is not primary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted August 28, 2022 Report Share Posted August 28, 2022 2 hours ago, bcg said: Can I use the G2 as primary and remove the existing gauges? You're probably right about not doing too much with it, I have a tendency to want to overimprove things, I like nice stuff. The flip side is that when the time does come to sell, it'll move faster with updated avionics. A properly priced plane will sell quickly regardless. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted August 28, 2022 Report Share Posted August 28, 2022 Just to pile on....I can see NO justification for sinking that kind of money, for which you will take a 50% hit, into a plane you are planning to sell in the next few years. NONE! That panel is just fine. Fly and enjoy it. Save the money for your 'forever' plane. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcg Posted August 28, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2022 Man, you Mooney guys are as cheap as your reputation, you don't even want to spend someone else's money. LOLOLOLSent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rwsavory Posted August 28, 2022 Report Share Posted August 28, 2022 I’ll spend some of your money. Get a G5 HSI with the magnetometer oat probe and interface to your a/p, and a Garmin GPS. The G5 will eliminate the annoyance of your existing HSI’s precession and the very high cost of repairing it -when- it goes bad. You already have the G5 AI, so you will gain redundancy and have easy compatibility. Save the fancy engine instruments for your next plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted August 28, 2022 Report Share Posted August 28, 2022 10 hours ago, bcg said: Man, you new Mooney owners are as cheap as your reputation, you don't even want to spend the going rate to update and maintain your own aircraft. LOLOLOL FIFY Lots of experience responding above. IMO your panel is strip to the bones and rebuild setup. Short of that just repair as needed and fly the thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinecone Posted August 28, 2022 Report Share Posted August 28, 2022 To me, it doesn't make sense to spend the money to install a 25 year old tech GPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted August 28, 2022 Report Share Posted August 28, 2022 At the end of the day, it's still an M-20C. There has to be a rational relationship between what the bare bones plane is worth and the extras you add. Looks to me you have a great airplane. Turn the autopilot off and fly it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcg Posted August 28, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2022 At the end of the day, it's still an M-20C. There has to be a rational relationship between what the bare bones plane is worth and the extras you add. Looks to me you have a great airplane. Turn the autopilot off and fly it.The AP was a big part of why I chose this one. Nobody wants to hand fly 400 miles.I think the GPS 175 makes a lot more sense than a 430, I didn't know about those. I'll probably go that route to get something a little more user friendly than the old BK.Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted August 28, 2022 Report Share Posted August 28, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, bcg said: Nobody wants to hand fly 400 miles. Don't tell Lindbergh. The Mooney is a fabulous flying airplane. Try it. You might like it! Edited August 28, 2022 by Mooneymite 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcg Posted August 28, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2022 Don't tell Lindbergh. The Mooney is a fabulous flying airplane. Try it. You might like it!It's a lot of fun to fly, no doubt, and on a flight of an hour is so, hand flying is the way to go. I've got a 900 mile trip at the end of September though, no way I want to fly that by hand. It'll be a tiring trip even with the AP and then I have to make the return just 2 days later. In those situations, the AP is the only way to go.Let's not forget when Lindbergh crossed the Atlantic, Coca Cola still had Cocaine in it...Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotarPilot Posted August 29, 2022 Report Share Posted August 29, 2022 4 hours ago, bcg said: It's a lot of fun to fly, no doubt, and on a flight of an hour is so, hand flying is the way to go. I've got a 900 mile trip at the end of September though, no way I want to fly that by hand. It'll be a tiring trip even with the AP and then I have to make the return just 2 days later. In those situations, the AP is the only way to go. Let's not forget when Lindbergh crossed the Atlantic, Coca Cola still had Cocaine in it... Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk I hand flew from Grants Pass to LA a few months ago, albeit with my new Skyview HDX system, and it wasn’t that bad. I lost most functionality with my S TEC 30 when I upgraded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 29, 2022 Report Share Posted August 29, 2022 There are two routes people often follow to this question…. All financially driven… But that takes months before the install action actually starts… 1) If this is a forever plane… adorn the panel like it is the only plane you will ever own…. 2) If this is a plane you may only keep a short while… update as needed…. Adding a G430W might be a good idea… As a new owner… fly the plane, go places, see what breaks or fails… Get ready for its first annual… A small number of people are surprised by the need to OH something expensive… Get a year of no OHs in before spending the cash horde… Plenty of time to do the research… Dynon and Big G make nice wide screen TVs… A WAAS GPS is a nice upgrade for IR flight… I went a decade before upgrading my M20C… I finally broke down and got my Mooney, an IO550, GPS, and electric gear…. It came complete… wrapped up in Ovation clothing… Know that Big G has preferred installers… if going that route… make sure your guy is on their list… Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcg Posted September 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2022 Well, it appears that my KLN90B may have kicked the bucket. Yesterday morning, it powered up fine, we programmed in a flight plan and then had to shut down for a minute. When I powered everything back up, it wouldn't come in. We tried resetting the breaker, flipping switches off and on, made.sure the display was full bright, pulled it out of the tray and reseated it, all to no avail. I've got it at the house now, I'm going to try to power it up on the bench to rule out a power issue in the plane.In the meantime, the avionics guy went ahead and picked up a GPS 175 for me as he knew someone that had one in stock locally for $4550 so, worst case he has something to replace it with. I was really hoping to hold off a few months though, so that I could plan this out and do everything at the same time. I've settled on the GPS 175 and a 2nd G5, which will allow me to remove the gyro compass/CDI and the Icarus SAM. I can probably remove the OBS as well if I feed the ILS into the G5, I'm going back and forth on that. It would be nice to have the space for an engine monitor there but, it'd also be nice to have VNAV or LPV on one instrument and ILS on the other so that if one fails, I have something to fall back on. You guys have any feedback on that?Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201Mooniac Posted September 3, 2022 Report Share Posted September 3, 2022 8 hours ago, bcg said: I can probably remove the OBS as well if I feed the ILS into the G5, I'm going back and forth on that. It would be nice to have the space for an engine monitor there but, it'd also be nice to have VNAV or LPV on one instrument and ILS on the other so that if one fails, I have something to fall back on. You guys have any feedback on that? Since you mention you are adding a second G5, you will have LNAV/VNAV indications on the ADI if the HSI fails so you do have a backup for nav and glide(slope/path) info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZuluZulu Posted September 3, 2022 Report Share Posted September 3, 2022 On 8/28/2022 at 3:40 PM, bcg said: It'll be a tiring trip even with the AP and then I have to make the return just 2 days later. Can’t let this pass without comment. In GA, there should be no “have to.” “Have to” gets people killed. Be kind to yourself and give yourself the flexibility to change plans and fly later if you’re not feeling up to it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted September 3, 2022 Report Share Posted September 3, 2022 8 hours ago, bcg said: I can probably remove the OBS as well if I feed the ILS into the G5, I'm going back and forth on that. It would be nice to have the space for an engine monitor there but, it'd also be nice to have VNAV or LPV on one instrument and ILS on the other so that if one fails, I have something to fall back on. You guys have any feedback on that? The g5 is a great unit but very limited on what sources it can display from. The only way to show an ILS is to have a gps/nav/com like a 430w/440/650 that can switch internally. The 255 nav/com can also display on the g5 but I’m not sure if three i/o can be used (gps, nav/com, and AP out), I think the limit is two. If you went with the 275 HSI you might have more flexibility, not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcg Posted September 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2022 The g5 is a great unit but very limited on what sources it can display from. The only way to show an ILS is to have a gps/nav/com like a 430w/440/650 that can switch internally. The 255 nav/com can also display on the g5 but I’m not sure if three i/o can be used (gps, nav/com, and AP out), I think the limit is two. If you went with the 275 HSI you might have more flexibility, not sure. Can I mix a G5 with a 275?Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcg Posted September 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2022 Can’t let this pass without comment. In GA, there should be no “have to.” “Have to” gets people killed. Be kind to yourself and give yourself the flexibility to change plans and fly later if you’re not feeling up to it. I have another pilot going with me just to fly. Of course if we get delayed by weather, we get delayed, we won't take unnecessary risks. Thank you for the concern, seriously.Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted September 5, 2022 Report Share Posted September 5, 2022 On 9/3/2022 at 8:29 PM, bcg said: Can I mix a G5 with a 275? Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk You can however, I would probably go with a used 650 and dual G5’s or dual 275’s that will allow you to remove other steam gauges if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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