Rookie Far/Aim question.

[Mcstealth]

I was asked by an IFR student to safety pilot on a VFR day, so that pilot could practice approaches under the hood. That pilot told me I could log that time as PIC..? 

I asked a couple of other pilots about logging the time and they were split in their thinking in what the regs said. 

I have not looked that hard, yet, into the book but I am going to figure it out. 

Does anyone know the song and verse?

[Hank]

Yes, you van log the time that the pilot flying was under the hood, because you are then a "required crew member."

You can't log the landings, though . . . .

Just remember, you are responsible for everything outside the plane--cloud clearance, obstacle clearance, spotting and avoiding other traffic, etc.

[kortopates]

Yes, you van log the time that the pilot flying was under the hood, because you are then a "required crew member."
You can't log the landings, though . . . .
Just remember, you are responsible for everything outside the plane--cloud clearance, obstacle clearance, spotting and avoiding other traffic, etc.

what this describes is logging SIC.
For the Safety pilot to log PIC there has to be an agreement at the start that the safety pilot is the legal pilot in command, not the pilot doing the flying.

This usually works out easily when there are two student rental pilots sharing time in the aircraft. Such an arrangement can prove problematic in an owner flown Aircraft when the safety pilot is not experienced in that aircraft model nor on the insurance policy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chriscalandro]

Yes you can log PIC for the time the other person was under the hood. 
 

Edited January 29, 2022 by chriscalandro

[201er]

9 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

Yes you can log PIC for the time the other person was under the hood. 
 

Nooooo.... not so fast!

 

61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) Except when logging flight time under § 61.159(c), when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

 

 

 

[midlifeflyer]

My article published in IFR Magazine and republished on  AvWeb. should have your answers with verifiable references.

Safety Pilot Rules - IFR Magazine

Safety Pilot Rules - Avweb

(Edited to show the IFR Mag link - I thought it might be paywalled but it's not)

Edited January 29, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[201er]

25 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

I was asked by an IFR student to safety pilot on a VFR day, so that pilot could practice approaches under the hood. That pilot told me I could log that time as PIC..?

No, you cannot. Unless you were qualified to and agreed to act as Pilot in Command during the flight.

In either case, the pilot flying logs PIC time as sole manipulator of the controls under 61.51e1i.

If the pilot flying is the PIC, then the safety pilot can log SIC under 61.51f.

If the safety pilot is the PIC, then the flying pilot can log PIC under 61.51e1i and the safety pilot can log PIC under 61.51e1iii.

[chriscalandro]

Nooooo  not so slow!

 

Yes I simplified it. But, you can’t fly by yourself with a hood over your head. That requires a safety pilot. 
 

So

 

Yes you can log PIC for the time the other person was under the hood. 

[201er]

2 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

Yes I simplified it. But, you can’t fly by yourself with a hood over your head. That requires a safety pilot.

Yes you can log PIC for the time the other person was under the hood. 

No, you can't. Simply the act of being the safety pilot does NOT qualify you to log PIC at all.

[rbp]

5 minutes ago, 201er said:

No, you can't. Simply the act of being the safety pilot does NOT qualify you to log PIC at all.

a safety pilot is a "required crew member" 

its like saying when a CFI is instructing a *rated* pilot, that they both can't log PIC. they both most certainly can

>>>When practicing flying in simulated instrument conditions with a safety pilot, both the pilot flying the aircraft by reference to instruments and the safety pilot may log PIC time if the safety pilot is acting as PIC. As long as the pilot flying the aircraft is rated for the aircraft being flown, he/she may log this time as PIC because he/she is sole manipulator of the controls (FAR 61.51). Because the pilot flying will be wearing a view-limiting device, a safety pilot will be a required crewmember on board (FAR 91.109). The safety pilot may log as PIC any flight time for which he/she is acting PIC in an operation requiring more than one pilot crewmember (FAR 61.51).

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/learn-to-fly/old-pages/legacy-pages/aviation-subject-report-logging-pilot-in-command-pic-time

[midlifeflyer]

5 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

Nooooo  not so slow!

 

Yes I simplified it. But, you can’t fly by yourself with a hood over your head. That requires a safety pilot. 
 

So

 

Yes you can log PIC for the time the other person was under the hood. 

You simplified it too much.  You can only log PIC as a safety pilot if you are acting as PIC.  That requires PIC currency, PIC endorsements, and the agreement that the safety pilot is in charge of the flight (which might be an insurance or FBO rule issue as well as an FAR one).

[midlifeflyer]

24 minutes ago, 201er said:

Nooooo.... not so fast!

 

61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) Except when logging flight time under § 61.159(c), when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

 

Only objection I have to the video is the use of the term "loophole" for things intended by the rules. It's very clear from the very earliest safety pilot logging interpretation to the very latest that they are decisions about policy rather than strict legal analysis. My favorite example is the regulation  you cite. Strictly speaking PIC safety pilots are not acting as pilot in command of an operation in which more than one pilot is required, but the FAA has chosen to treat them that way.

[Mcstealth]

Well, to quote an 80's country song, *there's girls, and there's women, and there's ladies - there's yes's, and no's, and maybe's."

Looks like the yes's no's and maybe's have it. 

[Marauder]

When Basic Med was first introduced, I remember that a requirement for a safety pilot was they were required to be PIC. Has this been updated?

Also, having someone act as PIC as a safety pilot may also be a concern with your insurance. Specifically if they weren’t capable of meeting the open pilot requirement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[midlifeflyer]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

When Basic Med was first introduced, I remember that a requirement for a safety pilot was they were required to be PIC. Has this been updated?

No. But it's pending as part of a proposed rule primarily designed to increase medical requirements for commercial balloon requirements. 

[carusoam]

Sure helps to have a legal background to go with a pilot background to know and understand the fine details… and incorporate the next changes!

Great question, David!

Best regards,

-a-

[PeteMc]

11 hours ago, 201er said:

If the pilot flying is the PIC, then the safety pilot can log SIC under 61.51f.

Nooooo......  Read all the referenced out there and the FAA Legal Office Interpretations.  If we're talking basic GA the Safety Pilot logs PIC you do NOT log SIC.  Different animal.

[Mcstealth]

14 hours ago, 201er said:

No, you cannot. Unless you were qualified to and agreed to act as Pilot in Command during the flight.

In either case, the pilot flying logs PIC time as sole manipulator of the controls under 61.51e1i.

If the pilot flying is the PIC, then the safety pilot can log SIC under 61.51f.

If the safety pilot is the PIC, then the flying pilot can log PIC under 61.51e1i and the safety pilot can log PIC under 61.51e1iii.

Well that was clear as mud.

[Mcstealth]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Sure helps to have a legal background to go with a pilot background to know and understand the fine details… and incorporate the next changes!

Great question, David!

Best regards,

-a-

Yeah. It's as clear as mud for me right now. Hahaha. 

[midlifeflyer]

7 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Nooooo......  Read all the referenced out there and the FAA Legal Office Interpretations.  If we're talking basic GA the Safety Pilot logs PIC you do NOT log SIC.  Different animal.

Nooooo......  Read all the referenced out there and the FAA Legal Office Interpretations.  If we're talking basic GA the Safety Pilot may log SIC if not acting as PIC. That is directly from the very earliest Chief Counsel letter on safety pilot logging.

Edited January 30, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

directly from the very earliest Chief Counsel letter on safety pilot logging

Not sure if you meant earliest or latest, but I did find the interpretation and learned something new.  However... your statement that they log SIC is just as incorrect as my statement.  Incorrect in that it did not include both the PIC and SIC options.  

The interpretation does say the Safety Pilot may log SIC.  However, it also says IF the two pilots agree before the flight that the Safety Pilot will be the PIC during the time the flying pilot is under the Hood, then the Safety Pilot may log PIC time.  No change in the interpretation that has been around for a long time that I and a lot of other people were referring to. 

Kind of interesting that they changed the interpretation.  Back in the day I remember reading that you could not log SIC because that had to do with flying and aircraft that required two crew members unrelated to flying under the hood.  Be it the certification, type of flight or whatever, they distinguished Safety Pilots as a different type of required crew member.  But then I know of a famous writer pilot (ATP) that always left his pilots certificate and medical with (someone... FBO?, FAA friend?) if he just was going along for the ride on a GA flight so that he could never be considered the PIC or Crew Member.

[carusoam]

Quick PP question…

Who is collecting SIC time, and why?

Best regards,

-a-

[PeteMc]

8 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Who is collecting SIC time, and why?

I didn't realize this had been made an option until @midlifeflyer pointed it out.  (Out of curiosity I still want to go back and see when it changed.)

But this gives me the option to go be a Safety Pilot for someone, maybe in airspace I'm not familiar with, and not be PIC.  Sure, someone is going to come knocking on my door if something does happen.  But I'm in a better position if I am not PIC.  I could see this as possibly being a big advantage for those that actually fly for a living.  Accepting to be Co-PIC for their newly minted best friend may put them in a tough spot.  Still wouldn't be great for them as the "Safety Pilot" but they still were not PIC. 

 

And then there's the brain twister in how you could get 4 PICs at once in a Mooney.  But those regs have changed (or so I was told).

[skykrawler]

Typically logging time this way is used by students aspiring to obtain a commercial or ATP rating.  One can log simulated instrument time x-country with the other acting PIC and they both log the time.   Logging SIC time in a single engine piston airplane is not really useful.

If you aren't doing that it's not worth worrying about logging the odd safety pilot time.  If you don't have an instrument rating take the time to learn something about being 'in the system.'

 

[Mcstealth]

19 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

 If you don't have an instrument rating take the time to learn something about being 'in the system.'

 

I am also training IFR