Circling Can Be a Very Risky Approach

[cliffy]

Just because "you can" doesn't equate to "safe to do it" !

Doing ILSs and LPVs all the time does not make one competent to do C to L maneuvers 

If you're not doing C to L at night to mins on a regular basis  (1 a month) then it might be wise to rethink your ability to do it safely. (Think KMDW 31C C to L 22 at night in low vis even from smoke and haze in a 757, can be sporty to say the least even at 1000/3)

Once or twice a year does not a safe pilot make. Its a low percentage gamble. 

Never flew for an airline that did for real C to L Always VFR mins There's a reason why. (we did however have to do it on our initial check ride in the sim)

Even in the big iron I always hand flew every 3rd approach (ILS in those days)  AND took every 3rd one of those to 50 feet by going inside and briefing my copilot to keep his eyes open and say something if he didn't like what was going on at any time in the approach. Did it just to stay sharp and be comfortable if I ever had to.  We had flight directors that helped a lot but it can be done raw data with practice easily enough. BTDT

If you're going to use low mins then you need to stay in practice all the time NOT just 6 in 6!                                                                                                            And NOT on the autopilot all the time. You gotta hand fly the sucker!  JMO and no one elses!

[Ibra]

14 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Isn't the wording something like "when you can make a normal approach to landing"?

Yes it's FAR91.175, no specific point required to make descent to runway on circle maneuver in TERPS except that “The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing”

Same PANS-OPS doesn’t specify a particular place for circling, keeps it vague
Descent below MDH should not be made until:
a) required visual reference has been established and can be maintained throughout the manoeuvre;
b) the pilot has the landing threshold in sight; and
c) the required obstacle clearance can be maintained and the aircraft is in a position to carry out a landing using normal rates of descent and angles of bank

Single pilot IFR under Part91, only PIC can judge the decision to go below MDH to land from circling

CL is more ugly than VFR low pattern or IFR straigh-in plus one can't practice it in the sim (lateral outside screen view is bad and it's IFR with seat of the pants flying) 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Ibra

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, Ibra said:

CL is more ugly than VFR low pattern or IFR straigh-in plus one can't practice it in the sim (lateral outside screen view is bad and it's IFR with seat of the pants flying) 

You can get some sense of how scary and difficult it can be using VR these days, though

[GeeBee]

I'm actually wondering how soon there will be low cost VR sims. It would be a huge game changer

 

 

[midlifeflyer]

22 hours ago, Ibra said:

The other fun fact, is that no one knows where one should exactly descend bellow MDA to land on opposite threshold during a CTL, I have heard every colour & taste on this one: from as early as in downwind or base leg to not before straight-in final and on visual descent angle 

You're right and I think it is because instrument training is so procedure-oriented, we manage to overcomplicate the simplest things. I see similar discussions all the time about being cleared for the visual. "Oh no! What do I do now?"

Here's the FAA AIM: "Pilots should remain at or above the circling altitude until the aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers"

...which is really just an application of the regulatory requirement that, "no pilot may operate an aircraft... below the authorized MDA or continue an approach below the authorized DA/DH unless ... The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;"

Is that really complicated? I'm only half joking that instrument pilots have the ability to make something a student pilot does all the time complicated. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that if I put a student pilot under the hood and maneuvered him to the MDA of a circling approach, removed  the hood and said, "OK, make a normal landing from here," they'd have no trouble at all.  

Edited November 30, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

I'm actually wondering how soon there will be low cost VR sims. It would be a huge game changer

Even today, MSFS with VR is pretty accessible, although definitely still a WIP.  

[GeeBee]

True, but not FAA certified. That is what I am looking for and I think the FAA will have to rethink their sim certification very quickly in the next year or so because someone is going to plop one in their lap.

 

[Ibra]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

removed  the hood and said, "OK, make a normal landing from here," they'd have no trouble at all.  

I agree it has to do with heavy procedural aspect of IFR: at each point you know the heading & altitude, don’t get above this not bellow that, then suddenly you are in base leg with no guidance thinking you are fast & high looking at your RHS to confirm if it’s ok to start the descent here  it’s not difficult just remove the hood 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Ibra