Dual Magneto

[larrynimmo]

My “new” Lycomming engine is approaching 460 hours as I enter my annual on October first…my thought is that me and the AI will remove it and send it away to Kelly Aero…they charge $675 plus shipping to change out the basic parts, 500 hr inspection and setting it (other parts and labor are extra) as is shipping.

Is this the right thing to do? 
how difficult is it to remove the dual magneto and it’s looks tight in there for me…

I have a M20J with 

IO360A6B3D

[toto]

16 minutes ago, larrynimmo said:

My “new” Lycomming engine is approaching 460 hours as I enter my annual on October first…my thought is that me and the AI will remove it and send it away to Kelly Aero…they charge $675 plus shipping to change out the basic parts, 500 hr inspection and setting it (other parts and labor are extra) as is shipping.

Is this the right thing to do? 
how difficult is it to remove the dual magneto and it’s looks tight in there for me…

I have a M20J with 

IO360A6B3D

My D3000 is in about the same spot, just under 50 hours and will need an IRAN soon.  I've gotten pretty gunshy about all of the big-shop options, because reviews (QAA, Kelly) seem mixed.  I've been strongly considering sending my mags to flyguydon, who comes strongly recommended on the Piper Forum.  

Select Aircraft Services in Lancaster was the previous top recommendation on MS, but they're out of the Bendix business.  And the newer MS recommendation, Aircraft Ignition Services, now says on their website that they will not accept any dual mags for inspection or overhaul.  So that leaves Kelly and QAA, and I'm very strongly considering using neither.

If anyone on MS has a pirep for flyguydon, I'd be very interested to hear.  But he's the guy I'm thinking about using.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

23 minutes ago, larrynimmo said:

My “new” Lycomming engine is approaching 460 hours as I enter my annual on October first…my thought is that me and the AI will remove it and send it away to Kelly Aero…they charge $675 plus shipping to change out the basic parts, 500 hr inspection and setting it (other parts and labor are extra) as is shipping.

Is this the right thing to do? 
how difficult is it to remove the dual magneto and it’s looks tight in there for me…

I have a M20J with 

IO360A6B3D

it is very tight in there. It is a PITA to get it out and put it back in. The biggest problem is the length of the spark plug wires. you can barely get the cap out of the way. If you undo the wires from cylinders 2 and 4, both top and bottom along with all their clamps and ties, it will make your life much easier. 

When you put it back in, put the gear in the engine and slide the mag into the cushions.

Good luck finding the perfect combinations of sockets and extensions that allow you to swing a torque wrench. I use a deep 1/2" 1/4 drive with a 2" extension.

Practice your cursing beforehand, you don't want to go into this unprepared.

[EricJ]

I just sent mine to Kelly this past spring and have been happy with the results.   Removing the vacuum pump makes it a reasonably easy job by Mooney standards.   I sent the lid and harness in at the same time with the mag and it all came back essentially new, even though it was a 500-hour inspection.   No complaints here.

As far as I can tell only Kelly (and maybe QAA?) service the dual mags.   Everybody who used to seems to not do them any more.   If you are looking at somebody else, verify that they'll service dual mags before sending it, and then please pirep the results.

 

[Guest]

Isn’t it Kelly who make new dual magneto housings?

Clarence

[toto]

Just now, M20Doc said:

Isn’t it Kelly who make new dual magneto housings?

Clarence

Yep, they're now certified to PMA the housing and all components, but not (yet) to make brand new dual mags. 

[larrynimmo]

2 hours ago, toto said:

My D3000 is in about the same spot, just under 50 hours and will need an IRAN soon.  I've gotten pretty gunshy about all of the big-shop options, because reviews (QAA, Kelly) seem mixed.  I've been strongly considering sending my mags to flyguydon, who comes strongly recommended on the Piper Forum.  

Select Aircraft Services in Lancaster was the previous top recommendation on MS, but they're out of the Bendix business.  And the newer MS recommendation, Aircraft Ignition Services, now says on their website that they will not accept any dual mags for inspection or overhaul.  So that leaves Kelly and QAA, and I'm very strongly considering using neither.

If anyone on MS has a pirep for flyguydon, I'd be very interested to hear.  But he's the guy I'm thinking about using.

 

I call QAA…they have no cores in stock…they want 1,995 to rebuild and return your dual mag back to you.  They have a 7 day back log.  Free shipping return to you.

Kelly on other hand, will  do the 500 hour inspection and replace a list of components for $675…more labor and parts (if needed) plus you pay the shipping…they only have a 5 day backlog.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, larrynimmo said:

I call QAA…they have no cores in stock…they want 1,995 to rebuild and return your dual mag back to you.  They have a 7 day back log.  Free shipping return to you.

Kelly on other hand, will  do the 500 hour inspection and replace a list of components for $675…more labor and parts (if needed) plus you pay the shipping…they only have a 5 day backlog.

That’s a good price. Last time I had mine done, it was $900

[Guest]

Someone mentioned Crossfire Magneto Service in Florida.  Anyone tried them yet?

Clarence

[toto]

19 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Someone mentioned Crossfire Magneto Service in Florida.  Anyone tried them yet?

Clarence

Seems like the price leader for dual mags. Interested to hear anyone's experience. 

http://crossfiremagneto.com/Crossfire_Magneto_Service/Welcome.html

[201Steve]

@Raptor05121 probably has a pirep on the guy

[EricJ]

7 minutes ago, toto said:

Seems like the price leader for dual mags. Interested to hear anyone's experience. 

http://crossfiremagneto.com/Crossfire_Magneto_Service/Welcome.html

Probably not.   The condensers alone are about $100 each.  The parts add up in a hurry.    Kelly's $675 for  a 500-hour inspection includes the points, condensers, bearings and a few other standard parts that they always change out during an inspection.

The 500 hour on mine was $1665 at Kelly, which included two new coils ($425), new block ($212), two new gears ($268), and a new bearing retainer ($81).   With the core charge my new dual harness was $500.    Between the stuff they charged me to change and the parts they always change in a 500 hour inspection, it's essentially a new mag.   Total cost was $2262 + $26 shipping (I spent an extra $100 to keep my old lid and harness).    

 

[N201MKTurbo]

8 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Probably not.   The condensers alone are about $100 each.  The parts add up in a hurry.    Kelly's $675 for  a 500-hour inspection includes the points, condensers, bearings and a few other standard parts that they always change out during an inspection.

The 500 hour on mine was $1665 at Kelly, which included two new coils ($425), new block ($212), two new gears ($268), and a new bearing retainer ($81).   With the core charge my new dual harness was $500.    Between the stuff they charged me to change and the parts they always change in a 500 hour inspection, it's essentially a new mag.   Total cost was $2262 + $26 shipping (I spent an extra $100 to keep my old lid and harness).    

 

Sounds like they kept the case and main shaft....

[toto]

15 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Probably not.   The condensers alone are about $100 each.  The parts add up in a hurry.    Kelly's $675 for  a 500-hour inspection includes the points, condensers, bearings and a few other standard parts that they always change out during an inspection.

The 500 hour on mine was $1665 at Kelly, which included two new coils ($425), new block ($212), two new gears ($268), and a new bearing retainer ($81).   With the core charge my new dual harness was $500.    Between the stuff they charged me to change and the parts they always change in a 500 hour inspection, it's essentially a new mag.   Total cost was $2262 + $26 shipping (I spent an extra $100 to keep my old lid and harness).    

 

I'm all for spending money to get better value, but I've seen lots of critical comments about Kelly here on MS over the years. Sounds like you had a good experience with them?

[201Mooniac]

My was done earlier this year at Aircraft Electrical Components (http://www.aecnrc.com/) in Redding, CA.  They were quick and reasonably priced.

[Bolter]

I have had 500 hour done twice at Pacific Continental in Simi Valley, CA.  In 2017 it was about $850 (total bill).  I am due for another soon, so I will watch this thread, as well.  

http://pceonline.com/services/

[philip_g]

My a&p and co-owner does them in house 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Sounds like they kept the case and main shaft....

Yeah, that was about it.   They refinished the case so it looks like new with a new data plate, and I've no worries about the magnet wearing out.

 

59 minutes ago, toto said:

I'm all for spending money to get better value, but I've seen lots of critical comments about Kelly here on MS over the years. Sounds like you had a good experience with them?

Yes, no complaints.   Talked to them on the phone a couple times once they determined condition, etc..    Thumbs up all around.   I have about 55 hours on it now and it's been solid so far.

[Will.iam]

Wow i didn’t know bendix mags were more expensive to overhaul.   i have Slick mags and just sent it in to aircraftignitionservices and they charge $375 plus parts. I have the slick mag 6000. 

[PT20J]

14 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

Wow i didn’t know bendix mags were more expensive to overhaul.   i have Slick mags and just sent it in to aircraftignitionservices and they charge $375 plus parts. I have the slick mag 6000. 

That was most likely a 500 hr inspection, not an overhaul. Slicks are often called throw away mags because it costs more to overhaul one than to exchange for a new one. 500 hr inspections on Slicks are much less expensive. 
https://www.aircraftmagnetoservice.net/overhaul-c20di

Skip

[MarkD34M]

I have used Crossfire in the past, when I had a Tobago with the dual mag. I'd highly recommend them.  Very thoughtful, communicative and reasonably priced. All of the Socata guys use him for their dual mag's it seems and come with excellent reviews. My experience was very good and I'd recommend them. 

[carusoam]

If going the IRAN route…

Keep an eye on any plastic gears used inside the housing… when they are new… nylon is a nice white color….  After exposure to ozone and warm temperatures… the nice white gear becomes a baked brown gear… a subtle hint of its approaching brittle failure of its gear teeth…

Its amazing that the baked brown actually looks pretty nice, as if somebody in the gear business selected that color…

 

And don’t re-use any star washers…  we haven’t see this issue in a really long time…

PP thoughts about Mag failures we have seen around here… not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

On 9/16/2021 at 8:20 PM, philip_g said:

My a&p and co-owner does them in house 

He apparently has the skill set and tooling, I and every other A&P I know, do not. Not to say some don’t of course, but I’d be careful letting an A&P do it.

 While I won’t do a single mag either as I don’t have the knowledge, many A&P’s do, but it’s my understanding that the single mag is a whole different thing.

Edited September 18, 2021 by A64Pilot

[larrynimmo]

Update…..

me and the AI pulled the magneto, and sent it back to Kelly for the $675 inspection and (basic parts) replacement.  From a layman’s eye it looked really good and clean…it’s off of my Lycomming factory rebuilt engine from three years ago…hanger kept.

it got a lot more expensive…

- it only had 450 hours

- I cruise at 2450

- I run lean of peak so the engine is relatively cool

- head temps usually 350 degrees of less

- never saw my oil above 185 degrees.

I am still glad to get it done…I sent it next day and they received it Friday morning, and they are giving me my quote on Tuesday afternoon…that was quick.

I will report back to when I get it back

Edited October 7, 2021 by larrynimmo
Add pic

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, larrynimmo said:

Update…..

me and the AI pulled the magneto, and sent it back to Kelly for the $675 inspection and (basic parts) replacement.  From a layman’s eye it looked really good and clean…it’s off of my Lycomming factory rebuilt engine from three years ago…hanger kept.

it got a lot more expensive…

- it only had 450 hours

- I cruise at 2450

- I run lean of peak so the engine is relatively cool

- head temps usually 350 degrees of less

- never saw my oil above 185 degrees.

I am still glad to get it done…I sent it next day and they received it Friday morning, and they are giving me my quote on Tuesday afternoon…that was quick.

I will report back to when I get it back

 

The gears darken and get brittle from the ozone generated inside the mag, so replacing those is expected.   Mine had two "cracked" coils as well.