A few ergonomic issues

[MooneyNoob]

So, after much research, I finally joined you as an actual owner (m20k 231) and am generally thrilled, but after a couple of longer flights, a couple of issues came up that I hope someone here has solved:

1) I always knew the fit would be tight.. that is just one of the trade offs for great Mooney efficiency, but I feel like my spine is literally twisted into a sideways “s”..definitely not sustainable.  Can’t quite put my finger on it…almost like the right side of the left seat is a little lower (it isn’t), and then I’m sort of twisted to the left so I can maintain a vertical posture.   I am not even sure I’m characterizing the situation correctly…still trying to feel it out.   All I know is that the way this feels is more like torture than fun, and enough of it will land me in physical therapy.  I’m not small but not really a big guy either…about 5’11” and 195 so there has to be a solve.

2) possibly contributing is the center column that is digging into the side of my right calf.  Putting padding on that corner or wearing a soccer shin guard would just make the space even smaller so… 

…how do you all “wear your Mooney” and make it work?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[GeeBee]

First check the seat frame. A lot of them have broken backs and frames and are collapsed in other areas. They look normal without weight on them,  but they are not supporting you. Then go to the padding. 

 

 

 

[A64Pilot]

I intend to pad that corner myself, recently just use a folded handkerchief, but will go to .25 single sided adhesive neoprene. It cuts a groove in my leg, literally

Most will tell you to put the aircraft on autopilot and slide back, great if you have an autopilot.

Me, I dream about how perfect an aircraft it would have been if it were a tailwheel. Lighter, faster. more comfortable, (no center console)

But that solves nothing.

[A64Pilot]

Oregon Aero seats turned my Maule from a torture device into a comfortable airplane. there is a lot more to it than just new foam

[spistora]

I found that changing the angle of the seat back makes a difference in comfort. In the right position, it can minimize the amount I have to twist my shoulders.

[Tom 4536]

Make sure you don't have the 3 inch rudder peddle extensions. The extensions give less leg room and put your knees higher. As others have stated, I find adjusting the seat back angle helps a lot.

[Browncbr1]

Shim your butt with your wallet?   
 

+1 for reclining your seat back.  I like my seat back halfway back on ground, departure and arrival..   all the way back in cruise.   Seat pin is in second from last aft.  I’m 5’11” 175lbs
 

sounds like your seat is bent or broken .   Might be able to get it right with new foam. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Browncbr1

[gacoon]

>2) possibly contributing is the center column that is digging into the side of my right calf.  Putting padding on that corner or wearing a soccer shin guard would just make the space even smaller so…

 

I'm not a big guy but have had a J model for 20+ years and have had the same problem also.  I have a small hard bound ledger book that I record flights, gas etc.  It"s just the right size to put between my leg and the center column.  Has only been a problem for me on longer flights - I think if you get creative as you suggest you can overcome that annoyance.  All you need is something flat to protect your leg from the corner.

Some good ideas already mentioned on seats, if your plane is 20+ years old and the seat has never been rebuilt that is an area that might need attention. 

[A64Pilot]

Swap your left and right seats temporarily. this will put the seat belts backwards so to speak but it won’t be unsafe, if there is much of a difference, then you have fault isolated it to the seat. Swapping seats is a 10 min job

If you choose to recover the seats, I strongly recommend looking hard at Oregon Aero cushions, they aren’t cheap, but quality never is.

I’ll upset some but it’s my opinion that a Mooney simply isn’t as comfortable an airplane as many are, but wide, tall comfortable cabins kill cruise speed.

‘I flew an Aero Commander 114 once, and it was comfortable, but it was also a 130 ish kt airplane with an IO-540

Edited September 6, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Bartman]

I swapped my seats and the seatbelts when I changed the seat rollers. If your seats don’t roll easily then consider that if you are going to swap the seats then make it right. 
 

[PT20J]

You didn't say what year your airplane is. I had a 1978 M20J and the seats were terrible: with no lumbar support and insufficient side bolsters. I bought an orthopedic back support and took it to an upholstery shop an had the seats re-foamed to match the support shape and also add bolsters and that made it very comfortable. My 1994 M20J has the articulated seats and they are much better sculpted.

There are two rudder pedal extension kits: 1.5" and 3". Early models came without either. My 1994 had 1.5" kits installed at the factory. 

Skip

[ArtVandelay]

I second having the seats reupholstered I’ve done 12 hours/day in my 78J.

[MooneyNoob]

@ArtVandelay @PT20J, the plane is 1979 and the seats recently reupholstered and look nice but with minimal real support.  One thing your plane and mine have in common @ArtVandelay is the arm rest that protrudes from the wall.  It occupies an inch of precious thigh space  and it's one of the reasons I'm sitting a bit right of center  I wonder if there is a way to borrow space from the wall and RECESS the armrest. Anyone know if that's possible or who does that sort of work? 

[jaylw314]

I'd definitely suspect either you have a seat issue or you have the pedal extensions.  I'm 5'7", so my legs are about 2" shorter than yours, but I have to crank the seat forward to the penultimate stop to be able to comfortably reach the pedals.  That far forward, the arm rest doesn't come anywhere near my thigh, and the center console is well up above my knee and doesn't rub against anything.

Edited September 6, 2021 by jaylw314

[MooneyNoob]

@jaylw314 yes, i have the 3" pedal extensions.. they came with the plane. Still, without them, if i was that much closer to the dash, i think my legs would interfere with the yoke rotation. 

[jaylw314]

21 minutes ago, MooneyNoob said:

@jaylw314 yes, i have the 3" pedal extensions.. they came with the plane. Still, without them, if i was that much closer to the dash, i think my legs would interfere with the yoke rotation. 

The yoke rotation hits my thighs if my feet are on my floor with my knees bent up.  My wife has to put her seat all the way back, otherwise when she keeps her feet off the pedals, the yoke will hit her legs as well, which I do (gently) during the runup to remind her to clear her legs.

With my feet on the pedals, the yoke clears my thighs without a problem.  If you're that tall, definitely consider removing the extensions.  Your rear passengers will also thank you

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by jaylw314

[toto]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I second having the seats reupholstered I’ve done 12 hours in my 78J.

Your new seats look fantastic 

[toto]

33 minutes ago, MooneyNoob said:

@jaylw314 yes, i have the 3" pedal extensions.. they came with the plane. Still, without them, if i was that much closer to the dash, i think my legs would interfere with the yoke rotation. 

My J seats are very comfortable, but with feet on the pedals (no extensions), the yoke is definitely closer to the gut than in other aircraft. That's just part of the Mooney seating position. 

If it were me, I'd try flying with the extensions removed. At 5'11" I can't imagine you'd need them. 

[Bartman]

Our manufacturer allowed for variety and all pilots have different build specifications regarding leg vs trunk length, and Al Mooney built a one size fits most machine with adjustments and extensions available. I’m 5’10” and have no extensions and use the second notch from the rear for ground ops, and scoot back after takeoff. Legs basically stick straight out and I cannot bend my knees.  I would remove the extensions. 

[PT20J]

It sounds like the seat is too far back if the armrest is impinging on your thigh. In the normal seating position for a Mooney, the instrument panel is very close compared to most other airplanes. It seems strange at first, but after you get used to it, it’s great not to have to reach for knobs and switches.

If after removing the extensions you still find the armrest a problem, you might investigate this option which several here have installed.

https://www.jaegeraviation.com/spatial-interiors

Skip

[philip_g]

8 hours ago, Tom 4536 said:

Make sure you don't have the 3 inch rudder peddle extensions. The extensions give less leg room and put your knees higher. As others have stated, I find adjusting the seat back angle helps a lot.

I'm 6'3 and my co-owner is about 5'4 so I live with the extensions and fly with the seat all the way back. It sucks 

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I second having the seats reupholstered I’ve done 12 hours/day in my 78J.

I also had my seats done and they are fantastic compared to what they used to be.  Great lumbar support.  And also my bases I had made a little longer with a more pronounced lip to them to support my long legs.  Memory foam and also firm in all the right ways.  And perforated leather.

I haven't done any 12 hrs days but I have done 8 hr days and its comfy.

[aviatoreb]

Oh - one more thing - and this is cheap.  With my shoes on I noticed early on with my long legs I would not be able to put my legs all the way extended because they didn't really fit between the pedals.  So that too would put my in a slightly torqued position.  Try flying with your shoes off, just socks.  Then your feet can go straight forward and with your legs straight forward maybe your back will straighten out.  Flying in socks really adds to my relaxed feeling.

[MooneyNoob]

@aviatoreb what shop did your seats?

 

[Guest]

Quite often the seat recline cam edges get enough wear that the seat back falls of the cam allowing the seat back to twist.

Clarence