Back seat removal

[MikeOH]

Ok, I bought an F so that I could actually carry more than 2 comfortably.  Guess what?  I think I've had 3 people in the plane like 3 times in the last four years!  Four?  Never happened.

So, my wife and I like to cycle but getting TWO bikes in the back....well, not so much.

Ergo, my question:  Is it legal for me to remove the back seat completely?  Or, is this an A&P and sign off kind of situation?

[KSMooniac]

It's not structural, so minor mod to remove it. Have your IA make an alternate W&B without it if you're worried about it.

I made a plywood filler panel to make a completely flat cargo floor and it works great for bike trips, OSH load, carrying dogs for pilots n paws, etc.

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[DCarlton]

A little off topic, but I've had my back seats out once during an interior refurb 15 years ago.  I can't remember how they are removed.  Does anyone know if you can take them out without removing the rear interior side panels?  I remember the rod across the front but don't remember how the seat backs come out.  Thanks. 

BTW, I've never had four in mine either. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by DCarlton

[0TreeLemur]

The interior panels are seriously in the way.   There might be a trick to get the rear seat out without removing them but I can't imagine.   When we redid the interior a couple of years ago, we had the interior panels out anyway.  But the seat fastener hardware projects through the interior panels.

I think that leaves no choice but to remove the interior.  In our C that rear seat back is a really tight fit.  Good luck.

[DCarlton]

49 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

The interior panels are seriously in the way.   There might be a trick to get the rear seat out without removing them but I can't imagine.   When we redid the interior a couple of years ago, we had the interior panels out anyway.  But the seat fastener hardware projects through the interior panels.

I think that leaves no choice but to remove the interior.  In our C that rear seat back is a really tight fit.  Good luck.

Thanks.  I've been trying to work on my interior in stages this time one seating position at a time (plastic side panels and window trim).  Was hoping to be able to take the seats out without removing the side panels again.  One of these days I'll go big again and take it all out.  

[Hank]

Caution:  it's a lot harder to put the back seat IN than it is to take it out . . .

Try it, you'll like it! Just a few quick memories:

It's tough to catch all four seats in one shot!

[Bryan G]

Hey Mike,

Have you considered folding bikes? There are several different ones that will fit with the back seats in still.

Do you have split back seats? My backseats have a spring loaded pin that I can pull and pretty easily remove them. Usually I just fold the seats forward a little and I can fit the bikes no problem with the seats still in place.

[MikeOH]

34 minutes ago, Bryan G said:

Hey Mike,

Have you considered folding bikes? There are several different ones that will fit with the back seats in still.

Do you have split back seats? My backseats have a spring loaded pin that I can pull and pretty easily remove them. Usually I just fold the seats forward a little and I can fit the bikes no problem with the seats still in place.

Unfortunately, the back seat is rather fixed in place!

I'd be ok with folding bikes but my wife is a rather serious road cyclist (she can sustain an average speed of 23-25 mph, including rollers); so, we are into a 'happy wife, happy life' kind of situation

[KSMooniac]

It's amazing what can go in a mid body with the back seat out! 2 full size adventure bikes, camping gear, and a dog.

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[Prior owner]

I’m a bit curious about the rear seat back not being “structural”….. I agree that on the planes with the individual rear seat backs that there is nothing structural happening there, but on my 1964 model, the rear seat back is a full metal frame that bolts to the cabin steel cage at the top and bottom of the seat frame on both sides….it definitely provides more structural integrity to the cabin when it is installed. Does it matter though? 

[M20F-1968]

The steel roll cage is basically the same in all the models.  On the Ovations and newer, it is about 1" wider to accommodate more wiring.  The rear seats, including the rear seat back is not structural.  The steel cage is the same in the F model with split back seats as the bench seat model.  I am not an engineer, but you can certainly confirm with the factory.

John Breda

[carusoam]

The rear seat makes a good separation of all the stuff in the back from becoming one with the stuff in the front…

All the structural stuff in the cabin is welded together…

How structural can a couple of bolts be?   They hold the seatbelts in place…  and connect all that welded tubing to the wing….

Our seat backs aren’t very strong…

The back seat bottom is where the structure IS…

Have you seen what the kids are sitting on?

And why the rivets are so huge and uncomfortable under their bottom side?

Its called the wing spar… 

Make sure we are discussing the same thing… the seat back, not very structural compared to the seat bottom….

 

Anyone have a pic of the rear seat back with no cover on it?

Best regards,

-a-

[DCarlton]

34 minutes ago, carusoam said:

The rear seat makes a good separation of all the stuff in the back from becoming one with the stuff in the front…

All the structural stuff in the cabin is welded together…

How structural can a couple of bolts be?   They hold the seatbelts in place…  and connect all that welded tubing to the wing….

Our seat backs aren’t very strong…

The back seat bottom is where the structure IS…

Have you seen what the kids are sitting on?

And why the rivets are so huge and uncomfortable under their bottom side?

Its called the wing spar… 

Make sure we are discussing the same thing… the seat back, not very structural compared to the seat bottom….

 

Anyone have a pic of the rear seat back with no cover on it?

Best regards,

-a-

I just put new placards in my F.  There was one I haven't installed.  Had something to do with not applying more than 70 lbs of pressure on the seat backs (would need to look up exact text).  I can't imagine them adding structure that is accounted for in the airframe design.  Although it's possible...  

I'm just a pilot though, not an aircraft engineer or mechanic.  

[47U]

In the downloads section…

Certainly the early short body back seat adds some amount of strength to the frame.  I doubt if the steel tube roll cage relies on the extra stability the back seat provides to meet the airworthiness standards of the day.  

I know of a ‘62 C that was descending westbound into Ramona (over the foothills) years ago, CAVU, at night, and penetrated an onshore flow wind shear.  It was so violent that the the baggage door popped open, and the latch remained closed.  His A&P had to refit and reksin the door, but that was the only damage.  That’s a strong airframe.

[PT20J]

Four bolts to remove the seat back.

[carusoam]

Looks as comfortable as a church pew….  

Great details Skip. Thanks for sharing that.

Best regards,

-a-

[0TreeLemur]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

Four bolts to remove the seat back.

 

... and skinned knuckles, and a bunch of grunting and sweating.  And maybe some choice words...

[KSMooniac]

... and skinned knuckles, and a bunch of grunting and sweating.  And maybe some choice words...

This is correct! I've found that my Milwaukee M12 1/4" powered ratchet makes the job my easier.

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[Skates97]

8 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

... and skinned knuckles, and a bunch of grunting and sweating.  And maybe some choice words...

Possibly even some new words invented...

[47U]

6 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I've found that my Milwaukee M12 1/4" powered ratchet makes the job my easier.

I made a couple backers with nut plates.  It’s STILL painful.  

[Yetti]

Since the split seats have instructions on removal I am going to say they are user removable

[MikeOH]

46 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Since the split seats have instructions on removal I am going to say they are user removable

Meaning that those of with fixed seats need an A&P sign off after removal?