Anzaldi01 Posted July 13, 2021 Report Posted July 13, 2021 Help! I have a M20A which has been STCd for a M20E wing and M20J Tail. It basically looks like an early model C or E. The aircraft is beautiful and I just did a complete Panel make over including a JPI 930, 2 Garmin G5s Garmin GNS430WAAS. I want to add an autopilot but S-Tec and all the other autopilot manufacturers overlook the A Model which wouldn't really work anyway because of the E wing. Does anyone know of an A Model with a field approval for an autopilot? Or have any advice for how I might get a field approval? Thanks for your feedback. 1 Quote
EricJ Posted July 13, 2021 Report Posted July 13, 2021 It'll probably be difficult since your airplane is a bit of a mongrel. I think that complicates the approval process. These guys make a portable, removable autopilot (which seems a little janky, but exists), that might be generalized someday to more aircraft. Right now they say it's only good for C172s.https://www.portapilot.com/ Quote
Anzaldi01 Posted July 14, 2021 Author Report Posted July 14, 2021 Thank you for the feedback. Interesting idea for the Portapilot. Not really what I'm hoping for to be honest plus it's definitely not as clean I would like to go. I do have dialog going with Mooney about the issue I'm having. For all practical purposes it's really the same as an early C or E model. The S-Tec System 30 would literally plug and play but I have to figure out a way around the STC and getting some type of field approval. 1 Quote
Shadrach Posted July 14, 2021 Report Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) On 7/13/2021 at 8:53 PM, Anzaldi01 said: Thank you for the feedback. Interesting idea for the Portapilot. Not really what I'm hoping for to be honest plus it's definitely not as clean I would like to go. I do have dialog going with Mooney about the issue I'm having. For all practical purposes it's really the same as an early C or E model. The S-Tec System 30 would literally plug and play but I have to figure out a way around the STC and getting some type of field approval. Find a DER and explain your issue; they should be able to tell you with little investment whether or not this is feasible. There may even be some FSDOs that would accept a well documented 337 without DER approval, given that your airframe has been modernized with factory parts (all of which are compatible with the STC). The FAA seems to be trying to work around onerous regulatory hurdles that detract from safety. I think you could make a good case that forcing you to operate without a modern autopilot because of the letter suffix of your model aircraft detracts from safety. Edited March 29, 2022 by Shadrach 3 Quote
carusoam Posted July 14, 2021 Report Posted July 14, 2021 Welcome aboard Anz! Somebody briefly mentioned yesterday…. getting the latest Garmin AP approved for all Mooneys… All but two have been approved…. M20A and M20B… You are going to want to really improve your details when writing on this topic… Is there really an STC for your modifications? Or is that using Mooney parts on your Mooney, complete with documentation and drawings and part numbers… STCs are used to allow many upgrades for doing the work once… The STC process is an expense few would use to only do one… You have all the parts required… available to you… you are going to need to know the best way to convey what you are thinking to the right target audience…. Without raising all the old questions that you have answered already once… You may want to start a thread…. GFC500 and M20As…. Who else is interested? We have several M20A owners around here…. And a couple of Big G people too… We also have a couple of Franken-Mooneys… Where their numbers don’t match… Did you get… The rudder control of the modern tail? Airlerons of the modern wing ? This is important for AP control conversations… what year of the M20E wing is it? The M20A has a short rudder and a short rudder throw… what rudder throw does your plane have? Tune your thoughts, tune your presentation, move forwards… PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… Best regards, -a- Quote
0TreeLemur Posted July 14, 2021 Report Posted July 14, 2021 Interesting history on your A/E/J. Reminds me of that Johnny Cash song... "I got it one piece at a time". Good luck sorting this one out. Keep us posted. 2 Quote
AerostarDriver Posted July 14, 2021 Report Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) At one point garmin had listed that the certification effort on the M20 and M20A was going to start soon but I am no longer seeing that listed. At the time it made little sense to anyone as the Pre 65 C and E models did not have support and it was likely that the B model should be supported before the A. As far as Garmin and the STC are concerned you are an A. However, the mounting hardware in the wing would likely reflect what garmin as called out for the year model E that gave you your wing. The mounting brackets for the tail servos may require your installer to get creative. While I cannot guarantee any of these pathways may work but some concepts to explore for the GFC 500: Get the GMC507 mode controller and servos for experimental use and change the airworthiness to "Experimental-Market Study" Find an installer willing to sell you the certified hardware and reclassify the airplane as a primary category. See above and try to get a 337 in the normal category. Edited July 14, 2021 by AerostarDriver Quote
Anzaldi01 Posted July 14, 2021 Author Report Posted July 14, 2021 13 hours ago, Shadrach said: Find a DER and explain your issue, they should be able to tell you with little investment whether or not this is feasible. There may even be some FSDOs that would accept a well documented 337 without DER approval, given that your airframe has been modernized with factory parts (all of which are compatible with the STC). The FAA seems to be trying to work around onerous regulatory hurdles that detract from safety. I think you could make a good case that forcing you to operate without a modern autopilot because of the letter suffix of your model aircraft detracts from safety. Thanks for the reply. I've been in contact with our local FSDO and have requested contact by a DER to discuss my specific situation. Unfortunately I have have yet to hear back from them after leaving messages on several occasions. My next attempt will be through making an appointment and see if I can get a face to face meeting. On a positive Note I did contact Mooney and received a little encouraging information. They are having their engineering department review my STC and 337s and looking for possible options and they feel that a Field Approval should be obtainable. The real obstacle is getting the AP manufacturers to work with me. Even a letter of permissions or some supporting documentation by Mooney would be helpful in working with the FAA. If there is a M20A out there somewhere that has obtained a field approval for a modern AP system it would be a lot easier to have some backup to support my request. 1 Quote
Anzaldi01 Posted July 14, 2021 Author Report Posted July 14, 2021 13 hours ago, carusoam said: Welcome aboard Anz! Somebody briefly mentioned yesterday…. getting the latest Garmin AP approved for all Mooneys… All but two have been approved…. M20A and M20B… You are going to want to really improve your details when writing on this topic… Is there really an STC for your modifications? Or is that using Mooney parts on your Mooney, complete with documentation and drawings and part numbers… STCs are used to allow many upgrades for doing the work once… The STC process is an expense few would use to only do one… You have all the parts required… available to you… you are going to need to know the best way to convey what you are thinking to the right target audience…. Without raising all the old questions that you have answered already once… You may want to start a thread…. GFC500 and M20As…. Who else is interested? We have several M20A owners around here…. And a couple of Big G people too… We also have a couple of Franken-Mooneys… Where their numbers don’t match… Did you get… The rudder control of the modern tail? Airlerons of the modern wing ? This is important for AP control conversations… what year of the M20E wing is it? The M20A has a short rudder and a short rudder throw… what rudder throw does your plane have? Tune your thoughts, tune your presentation, move forwards… PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… Best regards, -a- Thanks for the welcome and your feedback. I will look into the GFC500 and may contact them to explain my aircraft configuration and see if they might have feedback as well. In answer to your questions: 1. Yes this wing modification is STCd. I agree that it is odd because this STC specifies that it applies only to my serial number and can not be reproduced on other aircraft. The STC is Walter Laidlaw SA4386WP. 2. The entire tail section is a M20J and the STC for the wing change calls for Rudder deflection of 18 degrees +- 1/2 degree. The complete wing assembly is M20E including the control surfaces. The STC also calls out the Elevator and Aileron deflections. The wing modification was made in 1982 and both the wing and Tail were done prior to my purchasing the aircraft, I've owned it for the last 28 years. . 3 Quote
mike20papa Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 An A model with an E model aluminum wing!? My wood wing A model is hounding me to say we fly time to 9K! Then level same heading for 5 min. and record ground speed and IAS. What is the empty weight of your airplane? I will post mine tomorrow. Joe N8335E KCFD (TX) Quote
carusoam Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 Anz, Your ownership time period means a lot! Many of the older birds get bought by first time owners… early in life… where an AP is just outside of affordable. Kids, homes, college bills can get in the way… If you still own the plane 20years later… AP affordability isn’t often the challenge… This is going to be important to handle each time you have a conversation about your project… Some people selling their products have a tendency to make judgements about the person they are speaking with…. What’s the chance this guy has 20amu to buy my AP? Should I get on to the next client in line? (Sales qualification 101) It may be helpful to know some people… We have a big G contact… (Trek Lawlor). We have a few shops that have been installing GFC500s in Mooneys already… If you have the dough, want the product, have all your details recorded and ready to share… speak with these guys to see what else you need. Where are you located, near LA? We have a few MSers that have purchased GFCs from SoCal to Oregon… it may be helpful to ask who did their install… Sounds like a fun project… Best regards, -a- Quote
Anzaldi01 Posted July 15, 2021 Author Report Posted July 15, 2021 14 hours ago, mike20papa said: An A model with an E model aluminum wing!? My wood wing A model is hounding me to say we fly time to 9K! Then level same heading for 5 min. and record ground speed and IAS. What is the empty weight of your airplane? I will post mine tomorrow. Joe N8335E KCFD (TX) The wood wing is certainly faster than the Metal wing however getting away from organic materials comes at a cost. My empty weight is 1624 LBS so basically Ramp weight is about 1952 LBS full fuel. I added a Hartzell Top Prop last year which increased my climb and speed noticeably with reduced noise as well. This year with a new engine both increased even more so I'm getting 1,200 FPM out of my home field of 1572' on a warm 90 degree day easily. I true out at about 165-170 MPH. 1 Quote
Anzaldi01 Posted July 16, 2021 Author Report Posted July 16, 2021 22 hours ago, carusoam said: Anz, Your ownership time period means a lot! Many of the older birds get bought by first time owners… early in life… where an AP is just outside of affordable. Kids, homes, college bills can get in the way… If you still own the plane 20years later… AP affordability isn’t often the challenge… This is going to be important to handle each time you have a conversation about your project… Some people selling their products have a tendency to make judgements about the person they are speaking with…. What’s the chance this guy has 20amu to buy my AP? Should I get on to the next client in line? (Sales qualification 101) It may be helpful to know some people… We have a big G contact… (Trek Lawlor). We have a few shops that have been installing GFC500s in Mooneys already… If you have the dough, want the product, have all your details recorded and ready to share… speak with these guys to see what else you need. Where are you located, near LA? We have a few MSers that have purchased GFCs from SoCal to Oregon… it may be helpful to ask who did their install… Sounds like a fun project… Best regards, -a- You bring up some good points. Having an older A model automatically puts you in to a "Don't Waste my Time" category. Earlier this year when the engine was timed out I toyed with the idea of selling it off cheap and putting the money I would spend on an engine toward a newer model. I pretty much figured I would look to spend around $100K-$120K as my budget but unfortunately after reviewing several planes in the range I was looking to spend I found that most needed far more work to get them anywhere near where mine was mechanically and I would easily spend another 50K+ to just get even really. I almost moved into a Bonanza but I didn't care for the V Tail and opted to keep in the Mooney family. Believe it or not my wife talked me into just putting the money into our current plane and make it how I wanted it so that was the path I took. I spent about $65K doing the make over and the only thing left is the addition of an autopilot which my wife also insisted I do next annual. October will be Annual time so I'm trying to align things but so far it's proving to be a real challenge. In any case I plan to keep the airplane and I know getting my latest investment back out if I ever part with it but in the meantime I have an airplane exactly how I want it. I'm based out of REI Redlands Muni near San Bernardino. I will consider going with the GFC500 if I can get around the STC issues. My preference is something like the S-Tec which replaces the Turn Coordinator just for simplicity and the fact I just did the Panel and had it powder coated and laser engraved but if needed I can do more cutting. Thank you for your feedback and encouragement. I love the plane and it has served me well. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted July 16, 2021 Report Posted July 16, 2021 Of the two AP manufacturers… Big G has been the best to work with… STEC did something really weird… while introducing their latest AP model here… Asked for POs from a certain number of people to demonstrate interest… Most MSers don’t use POs in there private lives… and when they do, it’s when they intend to purchase a real product…. Stec didn’t have the ability to STC their system for a small number of planes… the interest was surely here as the GFCs are flying off the shelf… and people couldn’t wait for their bird’s number to be called… MSers usually own one or two planes… and everyone is on a different schedule, financially… As you know… STCs aren’t that magical…. It does take skill to write them… but if you sell avionics… you have an STC writer in your camp to enable sales… Dynon is another player with a great product…. But, Mooney STCs are down the list from other planes… we probably have four or more instrument panels with a layout for the Dynon to be installed when available… To determine the best person to speak with at Big G… Start with Trent Lawlor. Trent is their sales/marketing guy in charge of social media contact…. He is often found at BT…. Using the phone may be best… Even when using a pre-flown AP…. Stec fees make it less likely to go that direction… STC transfer fee and other physical requirements… See if @kortopates has a preferred Garmin avionics center near KREI… PP thoughts only, not much of a social media guy… Best regards, -a- Quote
Anzaldi01 Posted July 16, 2021 Author Report Posted July 16, 2021 1 hour ago, carusoam said: Of the two AP manufacturers… Big G has been the best to work with… STEC did something really weird… while introducing their latest AP model here… Asked for POs from a certain number of people to demonstrate interest… Most MSers don’t use POs in there private lives… and when they do, it’s when they intend to purchase a real product…. Stec didn’t have the ability to STC their system for a small number of planes… the interest was surely here as the GFCs are flying off the shelf… and people couldn’t wait for their bird’s number to be called… MSers usually own one or two planes… and everyone is on a different schedule, financially… As you know… STCs aren’t that magical…. It does take skill to write them… but if you sell avionics… you have an STC writer in your camp to enable sales… Dynon is another player with a great product…. But, Mooney STCs are down the list from other planes… we probably have four or more instrument panels with a layout for the Dynon to be installed when available… To determine the best person to speak with at Big G… Start with Trent Lawlor. Trent is their sales/marketing guy in charge of social media contact…. He is often found at BT…. Using the phone may be best… Even when using a pre-flown AP…. Stec fees make it less likely to go that direction… STC transfer fee and other physical requirements… See if @kortopates has a preferred Garmin avionics center near KREI… PP thoughts only, not much of a social media guy… Best regards, -a- Great advice and background info. I will give a Trent a call next week and see what he thinks is a good approach. Thanks again to everyone. Quote
carusoam Posted July 17, 2021 Report Posted July 17, 2021 @TrekLawler @Anzaldi01, Oops, My bad… I let Siri spell Trek’s name like one of the other pilots… He is Trek, not Trent… Best regards, -a- Quote
kerry Posted July 18, 2021 Report Posted July 18, 2021 My A model has field approval for a Pathfinder P2A autopilot from the 70's. I know the Pathfinder AP is STC'd for E and J. I'm not sure if that's of any help. I've also seen a M20A with a Brittain ACCU-Trac. Quote
kerry Posted July 18, 2021 Report Posted July 18, 2021 N1960 | 1960 MOONEY M20A on Aircraft.com Quote
mike20papa Posted July 18, 2021 Report Posted July 18, 2021 8 hours ago, kerry said: My A model has field approval for a Pathfinder P2A autopilot from the 70's. I know the Pathfinder AP is STC'd for E and J. I'm not sure if that's of any help. I've also seen a M20A with a Brittain ACCU-Trac. Kerry, where are the aileron servos located? Quote
kerry Posted July 18, 2021 Report Posted July 18, 2021 2 hours ago, mike20papa said: Kerry, where are the aileron servos located? I have 1 servo mounted in the middle of the right wing just inboard of the aileron. Quote
Anzaldi01 Posted August 5, 2021 Author Report Posted August 5, 2021 On 7/16/2021 at 8:31 PM, carusoam said: @TrekLawler @Anzaldi01, Oops, My bad… I let Siri spell Trek’s name like one of the other pilots… He is Trek, not Trent… Best regards, -a- Do you happen to have Treks contact information? Quote
carusoam Posted August 6, 2021 Report Posted August 6, 2021 8 hours ago, Anzaldi01 said: Do you happen to have Treks contact information? The slow way… Go to BeechTalk and search for him. They surprisingly use real names so not to hard to locate… Directly… use the phone call Garmin… Trek is their key contact through social media. Best regards, -a- See if this link works… he has links for PM and email there You may need to be a member…. https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6594 Let me know if you can’t get the details… Quote
Yetti Posted August 6, 2021 Report Posted August 6, 2021 On 7/18/2021 at 12:32 AM, kerry said: My A model has field approval for a Pathfinder P2A autopilot from the 70's. I know the Pathfinder AP is STC'd for E and J. I'm not sure if that's of any help. I've also seen a M20A with a Brittain ACCU-Trac. I would think the Accutrac and then the heading head would be an easy paperwork thing to do. And cheap too. I do know when I had mine worked on at Brittian he made copy of the paperwork that was signed and serial numbered. As I keep getting told the A/P have their own section of regs, but with standard from the factory, they have alot of data out there to work from Quote
Dave Morris Posted March 13, 2022 Report Posted March 13, 2022 On 7/18/2021 at 11:53 AM, kerry said: I have 1 servo mounted in the middle of the right wing just inboard of the aileron. On my A model (N1960), the Britain Accu-Flite servos were mounted under the instrument panel, so no work required in the wing. Quote
jetdriven Posted March 13, 2022 Report Posted March 13, 2022 One big hurdle is that you can’t use STC data for the field approval. And developing your own data for an autopilot field approval install I couldn’t imagine how much it would take. A lot. Quote
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