flyboy0681 Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 A few weeks ago my partner was flying around and felt the right side of the seat bottom out, forcing him to complete the flight sitting at an angle. When he got down he took the seat out and found the weld on the bellcrank had given way after 40 years of use. A call to Dan at Lasar revealed that 1) this is fairly common and 2) a new bellcrank is not available currently from the factory (even at $1,900). He also said that they have experience fixing it by re-welding while adding reinforcement sleeves, which they did. A search by the part number (140216-501) revealed a Maintenance Alert report issued by the FAA several years ago: https://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=JAN2006 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 Anyone know the difference between an Aviation Maintenance Alert and a Service Difficulty Report? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMooney Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 (edited) TPS report? Edited July 7, 2021 by McMooney 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, PT20J said: Anyone know the difference between an Aviation Maintenance Alert and a Service Difficulty Report? An SDR is submitted by the maintainer, and may turn into a Maintenance alert? Or other things of course. ‘Even with the alert, I think welding and adding support is correct, properly done it will be stronger than a new part. ‘Sometimes when you do this, you move the crack as the original part isn’t up to the stresses. An option I guess would be to replace the tube with one with thicker walls? Edited July 7, 2021 by A64Pilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 8, 2021 Report Share Posted July 8, 2021 Great pirep, FB! Thanks for sharing the details… Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1980Mooney Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 On 7/7/2021 at 9:40 AM, flyboy0681 said: A few weeks ago …. found the weld on the bellcrank had given way after 40 years of use. A call to Dan at Lasar revealed that 1) this is fairly common and 2) a new bellcrank is not available currently from the factory (even at $1,900). I am still stunned that Mooney wants $1,900 for that small rather simple piece of steel and yet apparently there isn’t enough profit in it to motivate them to actually manufacture any. But I shouldn’t be - that’s why they are not making planes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said: I am still stunned that Mooney wants $1,900 for that small rather simple piece of steel and yet apparently there isn’t enough profit in it to motivate them to actually manufacture any. But I shouldn’t be - that’s why they are not making planes. Stunned how? Stunned why? Why shouldn’t you be stunned? Lets say you bought spare parts for industrial machinery… in the same price ball park… where a new machine costs under a million dollars… Spare parts are similarly priced, with similar availability… How stunning is it now? If it helps… Stop thinking about parts as pieces of metal you can build in your garage…. That would be the experimental category… These parts have part numbers, built and QC’d by an airplane company… When you buy them… they keep your plane flying…. Nothing cooler than that! Everybody gets to have a crummy day… Might want to start a thread…. How to lower the cost of new airplane parts…. If parts were priced like shopping at RockAuto… that would be cool… how many million Mooneys in the field would that require? I think I saw the MS complaint department the other day… I had to enter through the BeechTalk portal… Try it. PP thoughts only… not a spare parts guy… Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1980Mooney Posted July 9, 2021 Report Share Posted July 9, 2021 2 hours ago, carusoam said: Stunned how? Stunned why? Why shouldn’t you be stunned? Lets say you bought spare parts for industrial machinery… in the same price ball park… where a new machine costs under a million dollars… Spare parts are similarly priced, with similar availability… How stunning is it now? If it helps… Stop thinking about parts as pieces of metal you can build in your garage…. That would be the experimental category… These parts have part numbers, built and QC’d by an airplane company… When you buy them… they keep your plane flying…. Nothing cooler than that! Everybody gets to have a crummy day… Might want to start a thread…. How to lower the cost of new airplane parts…. If parts were priced like shopping at RockAuto… that would be cool… how many million Mooneys in the field would that require? I think I saw the MS complaint department the other day… I had to enter through the BeechTalk portal… Try it. PP thoughts only… not a spare parts guy… Best regards, -a- You are touching on "marginal value" pricing vs. "marginal cost" pricing. Yes, the critical parts keep the plane flying as you highlight, ....so if your plane is worth $100,000 airworthy and only worth $30,000 scrap value then we should be prepared to pay something approaching $70,000 for any major part that is critical to keep it airworthy...right? That makes this $1,900 single part for only one seat look like a bargain. However, Mooney made thousands of planes with the same basic seat design so you would think that they have the drawings, dies and the welding jigs. And one would think that the marginal cost for material, set up and labor should result in a reasonable price around $500 even with 100% mark-up or so for lawyers. If on the other hand Mooney tossed all the jigs and dies and manufacturing drawings for the legacy fleet, as some have claimed in past posts, then "reinventing the wheel" on these parts is expensive and takes time (if Mooney wants to supply at all). It is no wonder that many MSer's, in order to keep their plane affordable, are motivated to think long and hard about parts as pieces metal that "someone" can build "in their garage" or else scavenge from dead Mooney's. Another active MSer summed it up well last year - "if original parts are available, my AI has insisted that they be used...when original parts are not available, my AI has allowed me to make or modify my own parts (as it makes sense). Factory parts cost about 4 to 5 times what they are worth." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 10, 2021 Report Share Posted July 10, 2021 If I was any good at selling spare parts… I would pick one part every month or three… The ones that get used up the most… And build them…. With enough fanfare…. A thread on MS is pretty good about reaching many Mooney owners… It doesn’t take really strong AI to know what parts those are… We know, when priced with the market in mind… MSers actually buy this stuff. When able… I’m not afraid to have something like this part fixed… but I would prefer an unbroken part… Cost +10 or +20… Raw material cost +40… Normal industrial machining margins… Thread title…. Help keep (your) Mooney aloft! Wonder if this would help build the relationship between the factory and the fleet owners… Some additional thought has to go with this… because the MSC network is an important part of the Mooney parts supply… done properly, there can be savings for everyone… It is also important to keep the Mooney dismantlers in business… properly disassembling and cataloging the not so common parts… Why doesn’t everyone have new wheels on their chairs? proper orings on their fuel caps? A round hole in their up lock blocks? Actual switch covers properly printed from the manufacturer? And all the other things… Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted July 10, 2021 Report Share Posted July 10, 2021 (edited) On 7/8/2021 at 11:14 PM, 1980Mooney said: I am still stunned that Mooney wants $1,900 for that small rather simple piece of steel and yet apparently there isn’t enough profit in it to motivate them to actually manufacture any. But I shouldn’t be - that’s why they are not making planes. I used to work at a aircraft manufacturing plant, there are a few reasons why parts prices are so high, one is that often they are run by a business person who sees parts quite frankly as a cash cow, so they have some standard mark-up that doesn’t always make sense for all parts. ‘Secondly the price is often set by how long it takes to make a part and set up, especially for anything machined takes quite awhile, so if it takes 1 hour to set up the machine and 5 min to run the part, often the time entered in the books is 1 hour and 5 min, so you price off of 1 hour and 5 min labor, but once set up you can spit out a part every 5 min, so do you make 20 which may take two years to sell or how do you do it? I used to try my darnedest to get parts priced reasonably as one of my jobs was product support, but usually wasn’t successful. I kept trying to get them to realize that they didn’t sell any parts because the prices were so high, that almost any repair procedure to include make from scratch was less expensive. Only flight controls we sold were ones with a cosmetic defect that I wouldn’t allow on a new airplane as I ran the production line as well. Those I could discount ‘We did however have a whole lot of parts price quotes, as they were needed for insurence claims, a logical person would understand that if the parts were priced reasonably that all those quotes woud be sales, but it never got through their heads. Bottom line, you teach the Dealers and maintainers other sourcing procedures for parts and repairs and you don’t sell any parts, and once weaned off of the factory, good luck getting them back For example if you price a landing gear switch at $500 and say it’s 60 days after receipt of funds for delivery, people will start searching and someone will find who you buy the switch from, because aircraft manufacturers don’t build switches and relays etc. ‘So they are killing the Goose that lays the Golden egg, but as parts sales dry up, their response is usually to increase prices to try to keep the funds coming in, but they accomplish the opposite, and you just can’t convince them otherwise Edited July 10, 2021 by A64Pilot 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2021 Report Share Posted July 10, 2021 Mooney is not alone in issues with parts delivery. We’re looking for a landing gear indicator light assembly for a Piper Meridian, 224 day lead time and almost $2000. And this is from an active company. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2021 Report Share Posted July 10, 2021 3 hours ago, GEE-BEE AEROPRODUCTS said: Low production high cost I would copy it and mfg in 6061 Buts , that’s just me i I don’t talk about it, I get things done You all fail to do group buys and then complain on the cost of products Assuming the original is made of steel, how would you get approval to change to aluminum? Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 11, 2021 Report Share Posted July 11, 2021 7 hours ago, GEE-BEE AEROPRODUCTS said: Ac43.13 owner produced part, per sample cnc 6061 no welds Your in Canada, get der and Pma We don’t have an owner produced parts provision in Canada. Wouldn’t an owner produced part have to be made of the same materials as the original and show it has the same strength etc? If you’re changing the material from steel to aluminum it’s no longer the same part and would require different engineering and approvals wouldn’t it. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted July 11, 2021 Report Share Posted July 11, 2021 ALL vehicle manufacturers price spare parts at the ratio value of today's NEW vehicle pricing ALL manufactures see follow on parts sales as a Profit Center Can you buy a door handle for your 64 Ford Fairlane from Ford for the price it sold for in 64? No! They don't even make it now. To be able to have a company who made a vehicle 50+ years ago be willing to make a part for that antique today is a luxury - at what ever the price! ALL parts sold by an airplane manufacturer - whether they make the part or buy the part from someone else - have to go through QC with the airplane maker. There is a cost there to do that. They can't just say go to Rockauto and buy this part. The rules don't work that way even if the Rockauto part is identical to the one the factory is selling (unless it qualifies independently as a standard part or other legal qualification, but that's for another time as it always opens up a can of worms here). Why can't you "legally" go buy a Motorola car alternator at Rockauto and install it as its the same shape as the one on your airplane? Specifically to the point of the OPs part in this thread- its another example of A&Ps NOT doing what A&Ps were taught in school and should be able to do- repair simple parts. This part is nothing more than a simple 4130 steel tubing weld project, A simple jig to line up the hinge points correctly and welding the crack WITH a reinforcing strap (double up the other side also) is all that is needed. Even if it took 6 hrs its still in the $600 range even in high priced labor areas of the country and its done in a day. Basic A&P work for something "non-obtainium" LASAR is only doing basic A&P stuff here. There is always the used parts avenue to go down. Bead blast, repaint, done in 1 hour. BTW the crack most likely should have been visible at the last annual IF the seats had been looked at properly. We have antique airplanes folks and deeper annuals need to be done Yes these are ANTIQUES! By every measure of the word. I find it very interesting that what we see here system wide on deferred maintenance on our Mooneys has a direct parallel in the high end classic car arena - specifically on Rolls Royce and Bentley cars. Exactly the same issues of high priced repairs needed on newly purchased old cars even to the point of how some have bought Mooneys only to be "surprised" with annuals the first time, that cost many AMUs just to make them right. Its no different with a Rolls Royce of 35 years old or more. The EXACT same scenario played out in another arena! Its the differed high cost of maintenance on an old vehicle. Like it or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted July 11, 2021 Report Share Posted July 11, 2021 Just now, bluehighwayflyer said: I agree with you 100%, Cliffy, but as a guy who also personally maintains 2 Jags, a Mercedes, and a SAAB, all of which are daily driven by my family and the newest of which is 14 years old, I am very thankful that my vintage Mooney is such a simple and reliable machine in comparison! Jim Yes I'll go along with that Very simple stuff on a Mooney compared to a Rolls but still the specter of deferred maintenance raises its head every day. I've gone the Mercedes bit before (even to overhauling 3 auto trannys) but a JAG? And 2 no less? You're a glutton for punishment! "If you can't afford to maintain it- you can't afford to have it!" Basic, simple mantra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted July 11, 2021 Report Share Posted July 11, 2021 What cool looking lines! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted July 11, 2021 Report Share Posted July 11, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, M20Doc said: Assuming the original is made of steel, how would you get approval to change to aluminum? Clarence I would think that substituting material means you involve a Structures DER, and I believe they have manuals that pretty much show that to maintain the same structural strength that you need to go to xx thicker material, so it’s not a real big deal, but their signature as a DER is of course what’s important. Really helps if you have a friend that’s a Structures DER as I assume to hire one you have essentially a min payment, sort of like hiring a plumber for a 2 min drain unclog, your still having to pay for his travel time and mileage etc even though the work only took two min. Personally I think a standard tubing repair IAW 43.13 as an A&P would be the way to go, and I bet that’s exactly what LASAR did. Whole lot easier I drive old cars too, just not exotic expensive ones. just old. Both of ours are 2005 Edited July 11, 2021 by A64Pilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted July 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2021 2 hours ago, cliffy said: There is always the used parts avenue to go down. Bead blast, repaint, done in 1 hour. There aren't used parts of this kind to be had anywhere, and chances are that eventually the same weld would give way. As most Mooney owners know, just finding a single articulating seat frame is more of a matter of luck than anything. It took me five years to locate one for the passenger side, and they don't come cheap. Lasar charged $310 for the repair. I suppose I could have found a local welder to do the job for less, but I'd rather have experience on my side. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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