Cessna 501 down

[Mcstealth]

I do not have the link, but what would be the first guess that would make that plane fall? Don't read about many of them in the accident reports. +

[rbridges]

I'm curious also. It's a twin engine jet, correct?

[A64Pilot]

It’s the old straight wing Citation, I believe the first one.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/29/us/nashville-tennessee-cesna-plane-crash/index.html

As to what happened, who knows? My guess is they tried ditching as if memory serves there are a whole lot of woods around that lake, but it’s been at least 50 years since I’ve been there

Edited May 30, 2021 by A64Pilot

[GeeBee]

Actually seeing a lot of C500 and 501s go down lately. They have arrived in price point to "doctor killer" range. Saw that happen back in the mid 80's to Lear 23 and 24s. We had a guy with a Lear 24E (which is a Lear 24 in search of a fuel stop). Bought it for 275K. Had 3 altitude busts in 2 weeks! There is a lot going on with "cheap jets" that have me scratching my head as to where it is all going to end. A few years ago the was a Falcon 50 that went off the runway at KGMU. Besides the airplane being un-airworthy, the pilots were not type rated! We wonder why our insurance rates our going through the roof?

http://aerossurance.com/safety-management/falcon50-unairworthy-unqualified/

Yesterday, a friend of mine on the west coast witnessed a Baron take a prop strike on the right engine. He offered the guy a ride in his car to his home airport about 60 miles away. The guy flew the Baron around the pattern then departed for his home airport!

 

[aviatoreb]

I was in the air over Kentucky at 14k on Saturday am at the time of the crash and I heard atc calling unsuccessfully for an airplane several times and I presume it was this lost jet.  I am in Tennessee now.

[GeeBee]

I came out of KUCY about an hour before. It was solid overcast over most of TN.

 

[Hank]

So are people thinking simple spatial D? Compounded by unaccustomed speed?

[A64Pilot]

It’s been about 15 years ago at Sun-N-Fun, I saw a 172 taxing at pretty high power in some of the rough stuff, dropped the nose gear into some kind of hole and dirt flew everywhere.engine of course came to a sudden stop.

‘Well I started to walk over to give him the bad news and ask if there was anything I could do, but before I got there five or six helpers showed up, pushed it out of the hole, he cranked it up and off he went.

‘I figured it was a rental 

[exM20K]

Audio is up

 

[StevenL757]

@irishpilot,

Suggest relocating to the proper section.

[irishpilot]

Moved to Safety Section.

[EricJ]

His second-to-last transmission was not nearly as relaxed as the previous ones, and in the last transmission you can hear an alarm going off in the background.   Whatever happened was likely already happening by then.

[philiplane]

I've got maybe 30 hours in 501SP's, and they have good manners like all Citations. The plane was obviously heavy with seven aboard and fuel to go to Florida. Even so, it would still climb fine, even on one engine. The only thing that scares me on takeoff is the possibility of ingesting birds. You have no warning, there's not much you can do to avoid them, and they can kill an engine instantly. 

[steingar]

That's what you get for letting Tarzan fly a jet.

 

Yup, the pilot was a TV Tarzan from back in the day.  RIP.  The words "amateur" and "pilot" always seemed to fit together poorly, "amateur jet pilot" even worse.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

The words "amateur" and "pilot" always seemed to fit together poorly, "amateur jet pilot" even worse.

I'm only aware of two categories of pilot:  professionals and amateurs. Professional pilots by definition fly as their profession, military or civilian, and are compensated for doing so. Amateur pilots have other professions, fly sometimes and are not compensated for doing so. Engineers such as myself, and teachers such as yourself, both fit into this category, as our professions are something other than "pilot."

What would you suggest that we call ourselves? I would remind you that "weekend warrior" is already taken by persons who are actual "warriors" on rotating weekend schedules (i.e., the various National Guard groups, military reservists, etc.).

Being an occasional jet pilot has higher requirements that being an occasional propellor pilot, due to the nature of the aircraft and its flight regime. But flying single engine piston planes in actual IMC is rather demanding of us occasional pilots, yet we continue to do so (sometimes with great regularity).

[steingar]

19 hours ago, Hank said:

What would you suggest that we call ourselves?

I wasn't trying to invent a nonexistent problem, only pointing out that owner/operator model we use for our aircraft might work somewhat less well for jets, given their higher workload, more complex systems, and greater propensity for misadventure.

[philiplane]

From the flight track data, it appears to be a classic case of disorientation during hand flying. Which shouldn't happen in this type of plane, as the normal practice is to engage the autopilot at 500 feet and use it to fly the initial headings and hold altitude as assigned. 

[A64Pilot]

Depending on the turbine aircraft your flying, the work load can be actually less. I’d expect the old straight wing Cessna to fall in that category, but I have never flown one, never logged any jet item in fact but their reputation is that they are slow, but easy and forgiving to fly, pretty much like most Cessna’s

There is no mixture to worry about, no prop control. no cowl flaps. Pressurization is I believe automatic, biggest concern would likely be electrical failure, loss of an engine is probably no big deal in the way it flies.

‘I think they are single pilot aircraft?

‘I would also be surprised if insurence would allow any low time, inexperienced pilot as PIC, but in my opinion over dependence of automated systems is common, many consider loss of the autopilot in IMC an emergency.

Its seems also probably due to insurence costs that non professional pilots are uncommon,  I’ve never checked but assume the difference in insurence cost may pretty much pay for the pilot.

[Andy95W]

21 hours ago, Hank said:

I'm only aware of two categories of pilot:  professionals and amateurs. Professional pilots by definition fly as their profession, military or civilian, and are compensated for doing so. Amateur pilots have other professions, fly sometimes and are not compensated for doing so. Engineers such as myself, and teachers such as yourself, both fit into this category, as our professions are something other than "pilot."

What would you suggest that we call ourselves? I would remind you that "weekend warrior" is already taken by persons who are actual "warriors" on rotating weekend schedules (i.e., the various National Guard groups, military reservists, etc.).

Being an occasional jet pilot has higher requirements that being an occasional propellor pilot, due to the nature of the aircraft and its flight regime. But flying single engine piston planes in actual IMC is rather demanding of us occasional pilots, yet we continue to do so (sometimes with great regularity).

I certainly understand the literal interpretation of professional vs. amateur, but I really don’t think that distinction is very important to the real issue.

I’ve known professional pilots who acted like rank amateurs (none at my airline, thank God).  Likewise, I’ve given Flight Reviews to Private Pilots who would fit in well in any flight department because of their professionalism. 

And what about me, when I’m out flying my Mooney?  I still try to fly and act professionally even though I’m not getting paid.  Likewise, when I’m not getting paid to work on my Mooney despite having an A&P license, should I cut corners and not act professionally?  Of course not.

I would suggest that the real mark of professionalism is not the paycheck, but the attitude.  The FAA seems to agree, based upon what they wrote in FAA-H-8083-9, Chapter 8, Aviation Instructor Responsibilities and Professionalism:

“As professionals, aviation instructors strive to maintain the highest level of knowledge, training, and currency in the field of aviation. To achieve this goal, instructors need to commit themselves to continuous, lifelong learning and professional development through study”

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/aviation_instructors_handbook/media/10_aih_chapter_8.pdf

Nowhere in this document does the FAA mention a paycheck, but they talk a lot about attitude, dedication, and continually striving to be better.  There is simply no reason why an amateur Private Pilot shouldn’t strive to have those qualities as well.

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Depending on the turbine aircraft your flying, the work load can be actually less. I’d expect the old straight wing Cessna to fall in that category, but I have never flown one, never logged any jet item in fact but their reputation is that they are slow, but easy and forgiving to fly, pretty much like most Cessna’s

There is no mixture to worry about, no prop control. no cowl flaps. Pressurization is I believe automatic, biggest concern would likely be electrical failure, loss of an engine is probably no big deal in the way it flies.

‘I think they are single pilot aircraft?

‘I would also be surprised if insurence would allow any low time, inexperienced pilot as PIC, but in my opinion over dependence of automated systems is common, many consider loss of the autopilot in IMC an emergency.

Its seems also probably due to insurence costs that non professional pilots are uncommon,  I’ve never checked but assume the difference in insurence cost may pretty much pay for the pilot.

Only flown the 525 but its a very low workload airplane. And an engine out is a very boring maneuver. I've been given engine cuts right at rotation and the only difference is the decreased climb rate.

Remember that in jets the FARs require annual training, not just a simple BFR. That training is almost universally done in a place like Flight Safety and such a place is nearly always required by insurance. This is why most business owners don't make the jump to jets, not too many want to give up a week per year for mandatory training. Its why Elon Musk says he stopped flying himself.

 

-Robert

[will1874]

I do not have the link, but what would be the first guess that would make that plane fall? Don't read about many of them in the accident reports. +

The procedure we practiced the most during initial type-rating school and recurrent was an uncommanded thrust reverser deployment.

There's a "STOW" switch on the glare shield for each engine should a reverser come unlocked or deploy in flight. If the "unlock" light comes on in flight it was a race to see which pilot could get to the switch fastest...and we usually ended up holding hands at the switch.

There's a video somewhere of the test crew demonstrating an in-flight deployment. They go from straight and level to inverted in about 3 seconds.


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[RobertGary1]

10 minutes ago, will1874 said:

The procedure we practiced the most during initial type-rating school and recurrent was an uncommanded thrust reverser deployment.

There's a "STOW" switch on the glare shield for each engine should a reverser come unlocked or deploy in flight. If the "unlock" light comes on in flight it was a race to see which pilot could get to the switch fastest...and we usually ended up holding hands at the switch.

There's a video somewhere of the test crew demonstrating an in-flight deployment. They go from straight and level to inverted in about 3 seconds.


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The 500 had reversers? In the 525 we had attenuators but not actual reverses. 

[A64Pilot]

On 5/31/2021 at 9:23 PM, exM20K said:

Audio is up

 

Last radio contact for 66BK, does anyone else hear a warning tone in the background? Warbling sound? Right at the end of the transmission when he repeats the heading of 130.

Actually now that I think about it,  it sounds just like the interference you hear in an intercom from an engine spark ignitor during engine start?

The AH-64 APU would do that the whole time it was running.

Edited June 2, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Vance Harral]

24 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Actually now that I think about it,  it sounds just like the interference you hear in an intercom from an engine spark ignitor during engine start?

Someone posted in another forum that the noise is indeed the igniters, and that it's "normal" to hear this noise in a Citation in IMC.  But I have no personal experience with that.

[steingar]

19 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Do you remember the guy that played the equally ridiculous and dumb Vinnie Barbarino on TV back in the day?  What would you get if you let him fly a jet? - a complete "amateur jet pilot" for sure......

I believe he has an ATP and type rated pilot in the right seat when flying his aircraft.

19 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

P.S  Now on the other hand, Harrison (blue light landing) Ford does strike me as a bit of an amateur........But I have never seen him piloting a jet!

Harrison Ford is the epitome of a GA pilot.  He flies taildraggers, and antiques, and has rescued people in jet helicopters in the Rockies.  And yeah, he had a spectacular instance of SLOJ not that long ago.  On the other hard he both recognized his mistake and owned up to it.  I'd fly with him any time.