M20J Acrobatics

[bfreelove]

11 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Great personal insights, Ben.  Thank you!

I had to dig way back into my VHS collection for this, but here are a few screen shots from the video.  It was indeed 1984.  I still think it was a 231 and a 201, but I could be wrong about that.  Their top cowlings were definitely painted differently, and the one painted black sure looks longer than the one with the white top cowling to me.

Jim

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting these pictures!  Some great history there.  You are right that is definitely a 201 and 231.  I had assumed they were both 231s, but having one of each makes more sense from a marketing perspective. 

[irishpilot]

I teach military pilots basic aerobatics, and have flown in civilian MX2s, Berkuts, etc. and had an unlimited card a while back. A Mooney isn't a plane to even think about doing this in. If you have an itch, find someone with a Citabria or a Pitts. A Citabria is a great plane to do upset recoveries and learn how to do aerobatics. 

Be warned, if you try to do aerobatics in a Mooney with or without training, you're asking for an overspeed/over-g, or worse, a statistic on the MooneySpace safety page...don't be that guy. 

 

[PT20J]

So, I think we have established a few points:

1. Aerodynamically, there is no reason a Mooney will not perform basic aerobatic maneuvers

2. Structurally, if you stay within the certified envelope there shouldn't be a problem -- but, some of these airplanes are old and who knows what structural issues may lurk out of sight.

3. The airplane has a slow roll rate, unknown probably nasty spin characteristics and is very clean. If you screw up...

4. Several members with significant aerobatic experience are not interested in the risk, so perhaps it is best to heed the advice of those with more experience.

Just my $.02, 

Skip

[Shadrach]

There are many clean low wing aircraft that are not placarded against  aerobatics (lancair, glasair, RV, etc.) Certainly someone with aerobatic experience could perform basic maneuvers safely. Putting aside the fact that it’s illegal, the roll rate of about 40° per second makes it the wrong tool for the job. 
 

A wise Mooneyspacer once said (I’m paraphrasing) that doing aerobatics in an aircraft placarded against it is a bit like riding a moped (among other things)...it might be fun while you’re doing it but it’s not something to tell people about.

[N201MKTurbo]

Proof I was at Oshkosh in 84....

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

Proof I was at Oshkosh in 84....

I bought this Mooney 2 days before in Boulder CO. Thought I would see if it works. It mostly did.

[N201MKTurbo]

6 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I bought this Mooney 2 days before in Boulder CO. Thought I would see if it works. It mostly did.

I was trying to find the picture where we went to Chicago afterwards and landed at Miggs. I was even more dorky in that picture. I can’t find it...

[Bolter]

I was friendly with a fellow J owner at my old airport, WHP, in Los Angeles.  He tried to convince me that rolls were fine as they were positive G maneuvers and the G's could be kept low.  He did it all the time, he said.  Offered to fly with me and show me.  I  politely deferred. 

He was the same guy who scud ran into a local mountain a few years later.  I was saddened to see him go out that way, but not all that surprised.   

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Proof I was at Oshkosh in 84....

Nice. Precisely 10 SN before mine (same paint scheme). Your old bird has been repainted mine is still original.

[N201MKTurbo]

4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Nice. Precisely 10 SN before mine (same paint scheme). Your old bird has been repainted mine is still original.

If I recall it was 670412

[Shadrach]

10 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If I recall it was 670412

Yup. I’m 670422

[Raymond J1]

I have many hours of aerobatics. Some time ago, I watched a pilot do some tricks with a plane that I know very well. Since I live under the runway lap of the nearby airfield, I decided to go to him to talk to him. When I took this picture, I wanted to go and tap on the canopy so he could open it and say, "I've been watching you fly since yesterday... Please don't consider doing what you plan to do after this takeoff..."

And then I did not dare ! I thought, " Who Are you to give advice ?"... So I did nothing, I watched the yak take off with its pilot and a passenger.

4 minutes later I took this other picture. They had just killed themselves after a lamentable, poorly executed barrel.

Since then, I've been angry that I wasn't banging on the canopy...

With my little experience: no aerobatics in M20 !

[aviatoreb]

18 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Proof I was at Oshkosh in 84....

You literally gave the shirt off your back to acquire a mooney - that plus your bag of magic beans.  And now look at where it got you.

 

[Buckeyechuck]

A bit late to the party. I’ve taken aerobatic lessons in a Zlin 242, T-6, and Extra 300.  Flown simple aerobatics in a Cub, Taylorcraft, Citabria, and Lancair. Did my spin training in a C-150.  I limit my Mooney maneuvers to commercial maneuvers. It does fantastic lazy 8’s.

[aviatoreb]

I think to speak out - which many of us have said - but hey I'll say it too.  Its not whether or not a Mooney may be able to do aerobatics, especially in an experts hands who knows how to control wing loading etc throughout - that is entirely irrelevant.  It is illegal and any expert would no that and wouldn't do it without some kind of special exemption - however that might be done with the fisdo or whatever - I don't know what that paper work takes and I don't care.  Essentially if you see aerobatics in a Mooney outside of maybe a show like Oshkosh where someone probably is an expert AND they got special exemption, this is probably a renegade.  And renegades often don't know what they are doing and it is an accident waiting to happen.  Rules don't apply to me types.

The first example I think of when doing aerobatics expertly in a normal category airplane, is Bob Hoover and his aero commander show.  And pouring lemonade while doing a role - meaning he was expertly controlling the forces, wing loading etc, at all times.  But I am sure he was carrying some kind of special paper work to allow exemption for his using this normal category airplane in that way.

A separate issue is maneuvers by an under trained pilot in an otherwise legal for aerobatics airplane.  Which I see above a very sad picture of a fireball outcome from an otherwise very capable Yak.  Very sad.

And here is the amazing Bob Hoover: 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

4 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

You literally gave the shirt off your back to acquire a mooney - that plus your bag of magic beans.  And now look at where it got you.

 

Hay, I payed $20,500 for that plane. I went to 26 banks before I convinced one to loan money to a 26 year old to buy a plane.

[Hank]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

Hay, I payed $20,500 for that plane. I went to 26 banks before I convinced one to loan money to a 26 year old to buy a plane.

That's double what I paid for my first (used) Accord one month after starting my first real job at the same age . . . Here in the sunny South, I was quite thrilled to get air conditioning! My truck left Detroit without any.

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, Hank said:

That's double what I paid for my first (used) Accord one month after starting my first real job at the same age . . . Here in the sunny South, I was quite thrilled to get air conditioning! My truck left Detroit without any.

I bought the plane on Tuesday and flew it home (about 20 miles). After work the next day, my friend Dennis and I took off and flew to Oshkosh at night.

When I got to Oshkosh, I had tripled my Mooney time.

[ZuluZulu]

On 2/16/2021 at 3:38 PM, aviatoreb said:

The first example I think of when doing aerobatics expertly in a normal category airplane, is Bob Hoover and his aero commander show.  And pouring lemonade while doing a role - meaning he was expertly controlling the forces, wing loading etc, at all times.  But I am sure he was carrying some kind of special paper work to allow exemption for his using this normal category airplane in that way.

Looking up the tail number of Bob's Shrike reveals it was reclassified in the Experimental category.

https://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N500RA

[Brian E.]

On 2/15/2021 at 10:37 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

Proof I was at Oshkosh in 84....

You're all focused on the scrawny, shirtless kid.  I'm more surprised at all the space at OSH.   Seems like we're all tightly packed tail to tail and wing to wing nowadays.  Could only imagine what the rest of OSH was like back in the 80's.

[aviatoreb]

5 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

Looking up the tail number of Bob's Shrike reveals it was reclassified in the Experimental category.

https://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N500RA

Good find.  I knew he would have done something to make it legal.  I wonder if it was a paper work maneuver to switch it to experimental or they actually did some kind of airframe modifications to strengthen it?
E

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Good find.  I knew he would have done something to make it legal.  I wonder if it was a paper work maneuver to switch it to experimental or they actually did some kind of airframe modifications to strengthen it?

I had the impression when having fun aeros, for safety & robustness, one is better served by certified aircraft rather than experimental? for paperwork & legality, one is better served by an experimental?

I flew one Tiger Moth (DH.82) in UK which was not on certfied paperwork but had a permit-to-fly (I guess this is the same as US experimental?), the permit-to-fly does not say if aerobatics is allowed or banned but makes it clear that 1/ "aerobatics is at own risk" and 2/ "advisable overhead aerodrome", I am glad we sticked to 2/ as one day we went into a slow loop and engine went into self-fulfilling prophecy: less speed, less fuel, less speed, less fuel...the engine restarted after but the brain fart moment and zero crew coordination sticked for a while 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Ibra

[David Lloyd]

Get a little light upside down and the engine will run out of gas after a few seconds, restarting when positive Gs are resumed.  The same will also result in several ounces of oil dumping from the breather unless there is an air/oil separator or other inverted system.  A few ounces will make a heck of a mess on the airplane and hangar floor.

[Shadrach]

On 2/18/2021 at 11:18 AM, David Lloyd said:

Get a little light upside down and the engine will run out of gas after a few seconds, restarting when positive Gs are resumed.  The same will also result in several ounces of oil dumping from the breather unless there is an air/oil separator or other inverted system.  A few ounces will make a heck of a mess on the airplane and hangar floor.

Getting a little light is not the same thing as going negative.  As long as the load remains positive the oil and fuel will remain on the correct side of their respective sumps.

[N201MKTurbo]

43 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Getting a little light is not the same thing as going negative.  As long as the load remains positive the oil and fuel will remain on the correct side of their respective sumps.

 

On 2/18/2021 at 9:18 AM, David Lloyd said:

Get a little light upside down and the engine will run out of gas after a few seconds, restarting when positive Gs are resumed.  The same will also result in several ounces of oil dumping from the breather unless there is an air/oil separator or other inverted system.  A few ounces will make a heck of a mess on the airplane and hangar floor.

Back when I was a scrawny shirtless kid, I used to do the Vomit Comet thing, until one time the engine went to about 3500 RPM!

All the oil goes to the top of the engine and starves the prop governor. Not good for the prop.