COVID 19 Vaccination Discussion

[Mcstealth]

What I find fascinating, is that the CDC has reported 8,854 cases of the flu this past flu season. 

Just sayin......

Edited April 16, 2021 by Mcstealth

[Marauder]

On 4/14/2021 at 7:44 PM, Andy95W said:

Got the second shot today.

The microchips must be working.  I feel like crap and have uncontrollable urges to trust the FAA and love my local FSDO.

 

And I bet some large ladies are starting to look real fine too...

[carusoam]

Which version of the flu was that?

How many flu deaths did they report?

Makes me want to get a flu vaccination, just a bit more than in the years past...

Stay strong...

Live to see the roaring twenties...

Were almost there...

Best regards,

-a-

[rbridges]

6 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

What I find fascinating, is that the CDC has reported 8,854 cases of the flu this past flu season. 

Just sayin......

I've been tracking covid cases closely with georgia dept of health, and I've always said I wanted to compare flu cases after the numbers are crunched. I felt a lot of flu cases were labeled as covid, especially before tests were readily available.   

Anyway, dentists were clumped with frontline workers, so I was able to get my shots fairly early. I jumped at the opportunity. Interesting fact is that no confirmed cases of dental office to patient transmissions have been documented. I know it doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I thought it would be a bigger issue. 

[bradp]

2 hours ago, rbridges said:

I've been tracking covid cases closely with georgia dept of health, and I've always said I wanted to compare flu cases after the numbers are crunched. I felt a lot of flu cases were labeled as covid, especially before tests were readily available.   

Anyway, dentists were clumped with frontline workers, so I was able to get my shots fairly early. I jumped at the opportunity. Interesting fact is that no confirmed cases of dental office to patient transmissions have been documented. I know it doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I thought it would be a bigger issue. 

Yeah we’ve been hesitant to get our little ones to the peds dentist - they have a big open space with a bunch of chairs and lots of spit flying  everywhere. 

 

@Mcstealth flu cases.  This is the lightest flu season observed in years (since robust tracking began).  This is not unexpected.  Flu testing is and has continued to be robust.  Since November we’ve been using a quad test in our hospital - measures flu A, flu B, RSV and SARS-CoV-2.  Last season (2019-2021) there were observed cases of coinfection of SARS-CoV-2 plus another virus including influenza. That’s been published.  This year we didn’t really observe coinfections and our testing became more robust to detect more viruses simultaneously. 
 

  There has been a single pediatric flu death this year in the entire US so far and we’re at the end of the endemic flu season. I used to have 1-2 kids per year die of flu at my small hospital.  Big places you’d see 5-10. We had like a total of 6 cases of pediatric flu hospitalized this year.  We usually have that many a week.  So yes, there is less flu.  You don’t misclassify influenza as Covid if that’s what your alluding to.  The peds data alone refutes that hypothesis.   Next year we’ll see flu increase again if mask mandates and social distancing wanes. 
 

The only other virus we’ve seen by PCR in any significant way is human rhinovirus.  There’s some interesting stuff about rhino- you may be less likely to get COVID if you’re rhinovirus infected.  That virus has mechanisms to inhibit replication or kick other virus out of cells. Kinda cool.  

[N201MKTurbo]

I don't mind getting a covid vaccine, but I will never agree to the fine print on the consent form. How can I get a vaccine without agreeing to share my medical records and personal data with the government?

[bradp]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

I don't mind getting a covid vaccine, but I will never agree to the fine print on the consent form. How can I get a vaccine without agreeing to share my medical records and personal data with the government?

I’m interested to know what the consent form entails.  The one I signed indicated zero about sharing of medical records / HIPAA authorization.  Nothint.  The drugstores that are rolling out a big proportion of vaccines want to bill insurance, so I’m sure they ask for a blanket hipaa release just like a primary care doc would to be able to share the “record” with a third party payout.  

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, bradp said:

Just don’t show insurance or ID.  

Where can you do that? All the providers around here require you sign the consent form. I would happily pay cash for whatever it costs.

[bradp]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

Where can you do that? All the providers around here require you sign the consent form. I would happily pay cash for whatever it costs.

I may have some information for you rich.  I’ll PM.  

[steingar]

16 hours ago, bradp said:

Mr Streingar this is not a correct statement. The recommendation is for those who have had COVID to still get the vaccine.  There is emerging evidence that 1) a single dose may be sufficient (TBD) and that 2) the vaccine may protect above and beyond against variants at protective titers if you’ve had Covid and subsequently gotten vaccinated. 
 

Bonus is that your immune system would get three looks at the virus compared to some in who’s never had it. 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777785

First, its Dr. Steingar, my PhD is in genetics.  This is really simple, so pay attention! If you've had COVID and survived it that means your immune system fought it off.  Your immune system actually remembers the stuff it fights off, that's the basis of all vaccines.  Hence if you had the illness already you're already immune, and don't need the vaccine.

Now, if you had a nasty respiratory virus and assumed it was COVID, a vaccine is a good idea.  You could have had a bad cold (fun fact, lots of colds are caused by coronaviruses!).  But if you had a case of COVID confirmed by a PCR test or antibody, then you don't need a vaccine.  It won't do you any good and it will probably make you ill, since your immune system will be responding to something against which you already have immunity.

As for those worried about some sort of tracking, take off the tin foil hat please and live in the real world.  Millions of Americans are getting the vaccine.  Even if the government knows who they all are they'll never keep track of them all.  By the way, I had to show a driver's license and that was it.  And that was just to make certain they knew to whom they were giving the vaccine. 

[bradp]

10 minutes ago, steingar said:

First, its Dr. Steingar, my PhD is in genetics.  This is really simple, so pay attention! If you've had COVID and survived it that means your immune system fought it off.  Your immune system actually remembers the stuff it fights off, that's the basis of all vaccines.  Hence if you had the illness already you're already immune, and don't need the vaccine.

Now, if you had a nasty respiratory virus and assumed it was COVID, a vaccine is a good idea.  You could have had a bad cold (fun fact, lots of colds are caused by coronaviruses!).  But if you had a case of COVID confirmed by a PCR test or antibody, then you don't need a vaccine.  It won't do you any good and it will probably make you ill, since your immune system will be responding to something against which you already have immunity.

Dr Steingar.  This is just not correct.  Your supposition takes into /no/account the robustness or lack thereof of cellular immune response, (neutralizing) antibody titers, class switching, affinity or avidity of natural antibody responses against variant surface or other antigens.  There’s a lot more to it than you’ve been infected therefore you’re immune.    The prudent recommendation at this point is for COVID survivors / previously infected to get the vaccine in accordance with the CDC recommendation.  

- Dr. Podd. PhD molecular immunologist / critical care medicine physician . 

[rbridges]

24 minutes ago, steingar said:

First, its Dr. Steingar, my PhD is in genetics.  This is really simple, so pay attention! If you've had COVID and survived it that means your immune system fought it off.  Your immune system actually remembers the stuff it fights off, that's the basis of all vaccines.  Hence if you had the illness already you're already immune, and don't need the vaccine.

Now, if you had a nasty respiratory virus and assumed it was COVID, a vaccine is a good idea.  You could have had a bad cold (fun fact, lots of colds are caused by coronaviruses!).  But if you had a case of COVID confirmed by a PCR test or antibody, then you don't need a vaccine.  It won't do you any good and it will probably make you ill, since your immune system will be responding to something against which you already have immunity.

As for those worried about some sort of tracking, take off the tin foil hat please and live in the real world.  Millions of Americans are getting the vaccine.  Even if the government knows who they all are they'll never keep track of them all.  By the way, I had to show a driver's license and that was it.  And that was just to make certain they knew to whom they were giving the vaccine. 

My memory from school is foggy at best, but wouldn't additional exposures enhance your immune response?  The cases of people getting second positives, maybe their first episode was mild and didn't build up enough memory cells?  Just thinking out loud. 

[bradp]

5 minutes ago, rbridges said:

My memory from school is foggy at best, but wouldn't additional exposures enhance your immune response?  The cases of people getting second positives, maybe their first episode was mild and didn't build up enough memory cells?  Just thinking out loud. 

Yes for almost all viruses repeated exposures result in a more robust and longer lasting memory response.  For the second natural infections it seems like the second case is typically mild / self limited.  

[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, rbridges said:

Anyway, dentists were clumped with frontline workers, so I was able to get my shots fairly early. I jumped at the opportunity. Interesting fact is that no confirmed cases of dental office to patient transmissions have been documented. I know it doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I thought it would be a bigger issue. 

Additionally, according to a publication in JADA the infection rate of dentists is less than 1%*. "0.9% (95% confidence interval, 0.5 to 1.5) had confirmed or probable COVID-19."

*Estimating COVID-19 prevalence and infection control practices among US dentists. Estrich, Cameron G. et al. The Journal of the American Dental Association, Volume 151, Issue 11, 815 - 824.

[Mcstealth]

5 hours ago, rbridges said:

I've been tracking covid cases closely with georgia dept of health, and I've always said I wanted to compare flu cases after the numbers are crunched. I felt a lot of flu cases were labeled as covid, especially before tests were readily available.   

Anyway, dentists were clumped with frontline workers, so I was able to get my shots fairly early. I jumped at the opportunity. Interesting fact is that no confirmed cases of dental office to patient transmissions have been documented. I know it doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I thought it would be a bigger issue. 

I have come to the conclusion that the lack of verified flu cases, no matter the type, is purely a function of economics. What ever the rational was for paying entities to report positive cases of the virus worked. Millions of reported cases of the novel virus,  only 8500 of the flu.

Dollars win out. 

[Andy95W]

34 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

I have come to the conclusion that the lack of verified flu cases, no matter the type, is purely a function of economics. What ever the rational was for paying entities to report positive cases of the virus worked. Millions of reported cases of the novel virus,  only 8500 of the flu.

Dollars win out. 

I came to a very different conclusion- that mask wearing, social distancing, and restricting occupancy rates all work to limit disease spread.  Not just coronavirus, but also more mundane diseases like the common cold and flu.

Most years, I usually get the flu once and a cold at least once (I work in close proximity to the traveling public).  This year, nothing.  The worst I’ve felt this year was the 36 hours after I got the second COVID shot.

[N201MKTurbo]

47 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I came to a very different conclusion- that mask wearing, social distancing, and restricting occupancy rates all work to limit disease spread.  Not just coronavirus, but also more mundane diseases like the common cold and flu.

Most years, I usually get the flu once and a cold at least once (I work in close proximity to the traveling public).  This year, nothing.  The worst I’ve felt this year was the 36 hours after I got the second COVID shot.

The COVID, flu and cold are all better than these damn masks and government intrusion into our lives!

It's OK CNN says they have extracted all the fear they can get out of the COVID and they will be scaring everybody with the Climate Emergency soon.

[aviatoreb]

17 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The COVID, flu and cold are all better than these damn masks and government intrusion into our lives!

It's OK CNN says they have extracted all the fear they can get out of the COVID and they will be scaring everybody with the Climate Emergency soon.

Can I take it as ironic that you are declaring masks to be horrible but at the same time your avatar picture is of you wearing an aviation mask.  Are you wearing the mask in that picture because the government is imposing on your right not to breath against your wishes, or are you wearing that mask in the picture because you choose to breath?  Follow up question.  Was it CNN that coerced, tricked, fake news'ed, or lied to you that made you post that picture? 

[Mcstealth]

7 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I came to a very different conclusion- that mask wearing, social distancing, and restricting occupancy rates all work to limit disease spread.  Not just coronavirus, but also more mundane diseases like the common cold and flu.

Most years, I usually get the flu once and a cold at least once (I work in close proximity to the traveling public).  This year, nothing.  The worst I’ve felt this year was the 36 hours after I got the second COVID shot.

I am not following your logic. If the masks worked, following your logic, then why are there millions of reported infections of the virus, and hardly any of the flu? Your conclusion using your logic would be; Masks work on the common cold and most flu types but not the novel virus...?  I can not follow that logic what so ever therefore your conclusion will polar opposite to mine.

I can understand the perception that masks help, and the science that masks help. I also know I have never had a flu shot, and I've never had the flu, knock on wood. I won't get a flu shot, and I'm highly doubtful I will take the vaccine. 

The medical institutions got paid for positive covid tests, and not paid for positive flu tests. Common logic and common sense dictates which tests would be reported. Bean counters win. The dollar is all conquering. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Mcstealth

[Skates97]

On 4/15/2021 at 9:12 AM, jaylw314 said:

To clarify, the degree of immunity past infection confers is unclear but is expected to be less than with vaccination.  I heard one epidemiologist saying infection might confer as little as 5 months, but I suspect that is based on no data at all.  The consensus seems to be, however, that vaccination is generally expected to produce longer-lasting or more effective immunity than prior infection. 

Hence the CDC recommendation that people with prior COVID-19 infection should still get vaccinated.

How is it that they can say that the vaccine gives longer protection than getting the disease? What data is that based on? I'm not trying to argue, I honestly would like to know. Neither the disease nor the vaccines have been around long enough to have any long term analysis of protection from the disease or of long term side effects of either the disease or the vaccines. I would think that we would need to be further down the road to look at the differences between those that had a vaccine compared to those that had the disease.

Also, with regards to immunity from the vaccines, what I have read is that they do not give immunity, they help so that when you do contract it you will have a more mild case, hence the reason they are continuing to preach the masks and social distancing even after getting vaccinated. If the vaccine truly provided immunity then there would be no reason for masks or social distancing. There would also be no reason for those who have been vaccinated to be worried about those who haven't been vaccinated.

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

How is it that they can say that the vaccine gives longer protection than getting the disease? What data is that based on? I'm not trying to argue, I honestly would like to know. Neither the disease nor the vaccines have been around long enough to have any long term analysis of protection from the disease or of long term side effects of either the disease or the vaccines. I would think that we would need to be further down the road to look at the differences between those that had a vaccine compared to those that had the disease.

Also, with regards to immunity from the vaccines, what I have read is that they do not give immunity, they help so that when you do contract it you will have a more mild case, hence the reason they are continuing to preach the masks and social distancing even after getting vaccinated. If the vaccine truly provided immunity then there would be no reason for masks or social distancing. There would also be no reason for those who have been vaccinated to be worried about those who haven't been vaccinated.

Good question.  I don't know - half life of antibodies whatever that means?  Half life of antibody effectiveness if that can be measured?  Both the disease and the vaccine have been around maybe to look for changes in such things if they are measurable.

I think the CDC guidance as of today is that groups of vaccinated people where everyone is vaccinated are free to congregate in closed spaces without any particular worry.  But that vaccinated people may well still get infected and be able to infect other people even if they do not get sick themselves, so for sake of public health and stopping the pandemic the recommendation is to wear mask if in the proximity of people who are not vaccinated.  Separate from my own feelings of good will toward my neighbors, which for me is good enough, when I go to the store or wherever and rules of the house, private places of business, require a mask whether or not I agree with it.  So I am fine with respecting rules of a private business.
E

[dzeleski]

3 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

How is it that they can say that the vaccine gives longer protection than getting the disease? What data is that based on? I'm not trying to argue, I honestly would like to know. Neither the disease nor the vaccines have been around long enough to have any long term analysis of protection from the disease or of long term side effects of either the disease or the vaccines. I would think that we would need to be further down the road to look at the differences between those that had a vaccine compared to those that had the disease.

Also, with regards to immunity from the vaccines, what I have read is that they do not give immunity, they help so that when you do contract it you will have a more mild case, hence the reason they are continuing to preach the masks and social distancing even after getting vaccinated. If the vaccine truly provided immunity then there would be no reason for masks or social distancing. There would also be no reason for those who have been vaccinated to be worried about those who haven't been vaccinated.

I really prefer to stay out of topics like this but here: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/pfizer-ceo-says-third-covid-vaccine-dose-likely-needed-within-12-months.html

Basically the pfizer ceo stated that this disease will go from pandemic to endemic and will require an annual shot most likely. The biggest difference between covid and the flu is that the flu mutates much faster and every year we "guess" what the strains are going to be, which is why the flu shot can be as ineffective as 19% effective. covid can mutate but its mutates much slower and so far the existing vaccines provide significant protection to the mutations.

Vaccines do create immunity thats how they work. Its not that you are "immune" its that your immune system now has a memory of how to defend itself from that disease and fights it off efficiently and easily. If you want to know more see this very details document: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/conversations/downloads/vacsafe-understand-color-office.pdf

[rbridges]

4 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Additionally, according to a publication in JADA the infection rate of dentists is less than 1%*. "0.9% (95% confidence interval, 0.5 to 1.5) had confirmed or probable COVID-19."

*Estimating COVID-19 prevalence and infection control practices among US dentists. Estrich, Cameron G. et al. The Journal of the American Dental Association, Volume 151, Issue 11, 815 - 824.

Yep, I think the infection rates for both dentists and hygienists are well below the national average.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Can I take it as ironic that you are declaring masks to be horrible but at the same time your avatar picture is of you wearing an aviation mask.  Are you wearing the mask in that picture because the government is imposing on your right not to breath against your wishes, or are you wearing that mask in the picture because you choose to breath?  Follow up question.  Was it CNN that coerced, tricked, fake news'ed, or lied to you that made you post that picture? 

I’m wearing the mask because it is the only usable microphone in that airplane. We didn’t go over 6500 on that flight.

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’m wearing the mask because it is the only usable microphone in that airplane. We didn’t go over 6500 on that flight.

I see the helmet.  I presume that is one of those setups with the helmet being the headset for the audio part as well?  What kind of plane was that?  Sounds like something kind of exciting?  I'm picturing you in some kind of exciting aerobatic machine with that gear on.