pattern entry

[Hank]

Bob and Don are the men!

"the bottom line.  Aggressive slips in your Pre-J or J should be okay from a safety of flight viewpoint."--Bob Kromer, Mooney test pilot

[jetdriven]

Speedbrakes add drag same as a slip does.    For one thing, sure, final approach speed is, say, 80 KIAS.  If you do a slip, do it above this speed.  Maybe a lot above that speed. Think about that, you are slipping to cause drag to lose altitude.  Flying a faster speed adds drag proportional to the sqaure root of the speed. 

You cannot slip at Vref, it cust the margin too close. Always add 10-20 knots.

Quote: jlunseth

Well, I am a K pilot.  I read Bob Kromer's articles, but this is the one that put me off doing slips.  http://www.mooneyevents.com/spins2.html

Granted, he was stalling, not slipping, at the time.  But the key to it for me was that he was in a cross controlled condition at low speed, and what is a slip?  A cross controlled condition at final approach speed. 

I think there has been enough test piloting on this issue for me.  K and up, slips are not smart.

Besides, I never have to do a slip to land.  I just throttle back and the aircraft will fall, if I need a little extra I deploy the speedbrakes, but the number of times I have deployed the brakes because I needed to in order to get down and land, I could count on one hand.

[201er]

Quote: jetdriven

[xftrplt]

Quote: 201er

[DaV8or]

Quote: N4352H

This is a massive peeve of mine. FDK is so busy, they are finally going to put in a tower (Feb 2012, amen).

[DrBill]

Getting back on topic.. When I visit my Brother in law, I arrive at the local airport at or near pattern altitude (after flying over BIL house). The problem is that I am arriving at an ackward angle.  Lets stay the airport has a N-S runway.  And landing to the S is common.  With left pattern, the downwind is on the E side of the runway.  I always arrive from the  NE corner.  I could fly to the W some and make a straight in, or go WAY E  and make a pair of right turns to get on Downwind.  This is what I elect to do however, a lot of training goes on here and I've seen planes supposedly on Downwind 2-3 miles E of the airport and I'm almost head on.  Should I go further East to be out of their way then make the turn toward the airport ? or buck the pattern with straight in or do a base entry ?  

DrBill

 

[jetdriven]

Most midair collisions occur at low altitude near VOR's and uncontrolled airports.  That said, the more time spent "manuevering" in the airport area is more exposure time, like riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Less is better.

Anyways, FWIW, I would monitor CTAF from 15 miles or more out, determine if there is any traffic.  Anounce frequently. If only one other plane, or none, make a 5+ mile final, or a base entry. Make yourself known and dont hesitate to query other trafic and coordinate your arrival.  This isnt "bucking the pattern", its entering it legally. Netjets and other professional pilots do that as well.  If congested, fly to the south at least 5 miles east of the airport (clear of airport traffic) , and set up for a 45 entry.  This of course adds 5 or 6 air miels to your trip and 3 minutes, but may be the only way to clear yourself if congested.

I have never done a 45 degree entry in a 747. We fly to a lot of uncontrolled fields too. You could make an argument the 45 degree entry itself is a violation, as all turns must be made to the left, and the turn from 45 to downwind is a right turn.

[danb35]

Quote: jetdriven

You could make an argument the 45 degree entry itself is a violation, as all turns must be made to the left, and the turn from 45 to downwind is a right turn.

[DrBill]

Thanks for the posts.  Some times it's dead and the last time there were like 4 in the pattern doing landings. 

I'll listen and if dead do the straight in,  otherwise a WIDE berth!

Dr BIll

 

[Ncbosshoss]

Some more pattern entry reading!

 

Chris

 

 

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: jetdriven

So do you folks use a 45 degree downwind entry, a crosswind entry, straight in, or some other technique to enter the pattern? The place I fly at there seems to be a great consternation about the matter, and I would like to hear who does what. 

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

I try not to take the one size fits all approach.  If I'm approaching the landing environment from the downwind side of the runway it's a 45 degree entry.  If from the other side it's a mid field crosswind entry to downwind which I believe minimizes your time in the pattern and the amount of radio calls you have to make.  If I'm pretty much set up for a straight in approach based on my position then that would seem to be the logical choice as well.

[John Pleisse]

Quote: DaV8or

If your home airport is that busy, you will enjoy your new tower. I flew for twelve years out of KOAK really liked having a tower make sense out of the potential chaos and keep an eye on me. I am now at an uncontrolled tower and it's not too bad because it's really not that busy here. If I were located at an airport that was a popular fly in destination I would really like to have a tower.

The FAA has a very hands off approach to uncontrolled fields and when it gets busy, it becomes the Wild West with survival of the fittest. Since the FAA says that you can enter a pattern any ol' way you want, people do. I prefer a classic 45 entry if it's busy. If nobody is around, I do whatever works. The main thing that needs to be pointed out is, everyone needs to be on radio and report your position in terms everyone can understand even if you don't think anyone else is in the pattern. Just like web forums, the CTAF has lurkers.

[fantom]

Quote: jetdriven

Anounce frequently.

[Hank]

Please, please, please announce 8-10 miles out, and at least once more prior to entering the pattern. Don't be like the Cessna goob coming into my home base right at sunset who announced himself "1 mile east inbound" as I was rotating on Rwy 8 . . . Never heard a peep while programming the GPS, taxiing, running up or back-taxiing 2000'. I couldn't see him until I cleared the trees [there's not much stopping on a 3001' runway], and there he was, going the opposite direction a half-mile or less off my left wingtip as I clawed for altitude with eyes bugging . . .

"Any traffic, please advise" is just telling the world that you don't care who is out there, they just need to dodge out of your way.

[201er]

Quote: fantom

Yes, and be concise. Listen up, look outside rather than at your GPS, don't ask "any other traffic, please advise".

If there's a dumber request, I haven't heard it.

[PTK]

Quote: jetdriven

So do you folks use a 45 degree downwind entry, a crosswind entry, straight in, or some other technique to enter the pattern? The place I fly at there seems to be a great consternation about the matter, and I would like to hear who does what. 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: 201er

"What's the active runway" at an uncontrolled airport with a single runway. My instructor used to get on the radio and say "the big black one."

[fantom]

A320 VFR only approach/landing.

Definitely VFR only.

The Kingdom of Bhutan is landlocked between China and India.

Runway is over 7K AGL in mountains. Fly over runway @ 4K and spiral down into a valley to fly over the river back toward the runway which can't be seen until short final - runway is about 30 degrees offset from the valley and abuts a hill which must be avoided with a banking turn until over the threshold. Short runway with hard braking, then one of those 180 degree turns on the runway hoping the main-mounts won't sink into the fringe.

[jetdriven]

The AIM is advisory, not regulatory.  The only "published" pattern is left turns when approaching to landing, unless a right pattern is published.  We dont fly 45 entries in the CRJ or the 747 either.  Someone call the feds.

Quote: allsmiles

What seems to be the "great consternation"?  Do we not have procedures we all learned back in private days on pattern entry at an uncontrolled field?  In addition, do we not have published procedures in the A/FD that address this? Some people suggest in announcing and obtaining permission from other traffic if they mind we change a procedure to suit us! I don't believe this is up to us to change as we see fit just because it's inconvenient to fly the published procedure!

Try explaining that one to the FAA!

My philosophy and practice is announce your intentions and position frequently starting from 10 miles out and follow the published pattern in sequence.

[flyboy0681]

I guess not all approaches can be as straight-forward as this one