LDI Posted July 7, 2020 Report Posted July 7, 2020 Hello everyone, I’m looking for help to better understand general costs and recommendations as I begin my search for a Mooney. I’ll try not to ask the repetitive question and debate about what airplane is better, however, hoping for a little help with budgeting and expectations. A little background information. Commercial instrument rated. Mission is primarily myself and maybe one other for business use. Average trip 300 - 400 NM with some closer to 600 NM. Based in the Seattle/Tacoma area heading east. Spokane, Boise, Salt Lake, Portland, etc. Desired budget of around $75,000. If that's not possible maybe more but this is the purpose of the thread. To learn and understand base and upgrade costs. For example, $45k airplane and $30k upgrades or $65k airplane and less upgrades. I’m looking for a solid aircraft. With my budget I’m estimating a C, E, or F. I know there are mountains going east from Seattle and icing but don’t think a turbo or FIKI is in the budget. I don’t mind manual gear, I don’t mind steam gauges. In general I care about functionality and value more than ego. Based on this here are the questions I can't figure out how to answer: Model Considerations - speed vs fuel flow; I assume C, E, and F are all going to be comparable and one is Engine Considerations What is an overhaul cost? Is it better to buy a run-out engine and overhaul or find a lower time engine? How recent should a low time engine have been overhauled (10 years, 20 years)? Avionics Considerations If I purchase an airplane without adequate avionics what is the upgrade cost? I know this is a loaded question but if I’m looking for capability, not fancy. For example, I’m okay with steam gauges (six pack, VOR, ILS or HSI not a glass panel. GPS that can work with GPS approaches and integrate with ILS or HSI but necessarily a big moving map GPS. So with that in mind what would the upgrade cost be? I guess the question is, what is the cost difference to replace with basic instruments again vs "modern" avionics? If most of the avionics are there but the layout is terrible what is the cost to rearrange the panel and update a few steam gauges? Replace just dual radios and dual nav? Add a basic autopilot? Add engine analyzer? Other General cost for a basic paint job? General cost of basic interior? Is this a rabbit hole? Should I be approaching this differently? What am I not thinking about? Thank you for your help and experience!! Quote
carusoam Posted July 7, 2020 Report Posted July 7, 2020 Nice line of questions LDI... Ownership is where you form all of your own answers... Some people look forward to having their engine and systems run-out... This is the only way to be forced into buying new stuff.... I had to get the new touch screen version..... with color pixels.... and high speed processor.... and WiFi... and blue tooth.... with fancy iPad Database updates.... It is incredibly difficult to justify 30 more horses when doing an engine OH.... that may be a decade away.... As usual... economics dictate many things.... In general... getting a fully loaded plane with everything you want... is much more cost effective than getting a empty plane and filling it up... What is your time horizon? A year, a decade, forever? I used a C to prove that GA works for me... When looking to replace it a decade later... I started looking for a J... the F would have worked, but the J was better.... Then I started looking at Missiles... I like bigger engines stuffed into my small vehicles.... Then I found an Ovation that was selling at the same price as the missile and Js... (something called the Great Recession altered the pricing, temporarily) If you are on the short time of ownership... consider buying something that is very popular for reselling later.... Paying full price for upgrades then selling in a few years, is not a very good financial strategy. Look for CB solutions for everything... this is a code for doing the same thing at a lower price.... OHs can be around 20amu... Paint 10amu Interior 10amu There is no age limit in the US... find a plane that is always flying... Since the engine was OH’d last. Don’t roll the dice on a hangar queen... Without having dough for an OH... Don’t buy a J at an M20C’s price... there is a lot of work to be done.... Always get a PPI... Always get TT... Use AAA for comparisons to everything you see for sale.... I wrote this same paragraph about a few hours ago... Use the search function, you will be able to find it... Forever planes get new paint, nice OHs, and fancy interiors... Working planes are safe to fly and adhere to budgets.... they aren’t usually very pretty... Finally, don’t cut corners... they get expensive.... PP thoughts only, not a sales guy or mechanic... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote
ZuluZulu Posted July 7, 2020 Report Posted July 7, 2020 6 hours ago, LDI said: Hello everyone, I’m looking for help to better understand general costs and recommendations as I begin my search for a Mooney. I’ll try not to ask the repetitive question and debate about what airplane is better, however, hoping for a little help with budgeting and expectations. A little background information. Commercial instrument rated. Mission is primarily myself and maybe one other for business use. Average trip 300 - 400 NM with some closer to 600 NM. Based in the Seattle/Tacoma area heading east. Spokane, Boise, Salt Lake, Portland, etc. Desired budget of around $75,000. If that's not possible maybe more but this is the purpose of the thread. To learn and understand base and upgrade costs. For example, $45k airplane and $30k upgrades or $65k airplane and less upgrades. I’m looking for a solid aircraft. With my budget I’m estimating a C, E, or F. I know there are mountains going east from Seattle and icing but don’t think a turbo or FIKI is in the budget. I don’t mind manual gear, I don’t mind steam gauges. In general I care about functionality and value more than ego. Based on this here are the questions I can't figure out how to answer: Model Considerations - speed vs fuel flow; I assume C, E, and F are all going to be comparable and one is Engine Considerations What is an overhaul cost? Is it better to buy a run-out engine and overhaul or find a lower time engine? How recent should a low time engine have been overhauled (10 years, 20 years)? Avionics Considerations If I purchase an airplane without adequate avionics what is the upgrade cost? I know this is a loaded question but if I’m looking for capability, not fancy. For example, I’m okay with steam gauges (six pack, VOR, ILS or HSI not a glass panel. GPS that can work with GPS approaches and integrate with ILS or HSI but necessarily a big moving map GPS. So with that in mind what would the upgrade cost be? I guess the question is, what is the cost difference to replace with basic instruments again vs "modern" avionics? If most of the avionics are there but the layout is terrible what is the cost to rearrange the panel and update a few steam gauges? Replace just dual radios and dual nav? Add a basic autopilot? Add engine analyzer? Other General cost for a basic paint job? General cost of basic interior? Is this a rabbit hole? Should I be approaching this differently? What am I not thinking about? Thank you for your help and experience!! Just one shopper's opinion: Engine considerations: Overhaul cost: airpowerinc.com is the resource I use for estimating the price of engines (installation sold separately). The O-360 Mooney applications are about $25,000 for an overhaul, roughly 4-5 thousand more for factory rebuilt, and quite a bit more than that for factory new. The IO-360-A1A is about $30,000 overhauled, with similar escalations in price for rebuild and new. Runout or lower time: you might get different opinions. Some prefer runouts because they get more control over which engine is chosen, which shop does the work, and how it is operated from break-in, having been there for each and every hour put on it from the beginning. It's also a good opportunity for engine upgrades via STC (turning to brand P for an example: Piper Warriors, previously available with a maximum of 160 HP, can now be retrofitted with the Archer's 180 HP, making any runout Warrior a great candidate for an upgrade). Others want to avoid the big lump expense of major engine work so they prioritize lower time options. You pay more for that upfront, of course. You'll have to decide where you fall on this spectrum. Maybe you'd find a mid-time engine "just right." Recency of overhaul: Opinions differ, but I think a 360-series Lycoming should fly for an average of at least one hour every week (52 hours/year) for basic upkeep. That is my rule of thumb at the minimum end. I've been told by Lycoming that an IO-360 engine can sit for 60 days without flying, at which point it needs to be flown for an hour to reset the clock, or be inspected if the 60 days elapses. That doesn't sound like a good long-term strategy, though -- it's more geared toward temporary periods of inactivity. I would be suspicious of a low-time engine (<500 hours) with a 10-year-old overhaul. I would run, not walk, away from a low-time engine overhauled 20 years ago. Avionics Considerations The best advice here, which was given to me, will probably be to buy as much plane as you can afford: the plane with as many of the upgrades you want already installed. Rough example, but a plane with a GTN 750 might cost about $10,000 more to purchase, but that same GTN 750 could easily cost $20,000+ to install in the plane you thought was $10,000 cheaper. You could have had what you wanted for $10,000 less! Labor is a significant cost in adding avionics, and that cost cannot be recouped at selling time. Better to let the last owner cover that cost instead of you. The only way to do that is to buy the plane that's already been upgraded, and add what it's missing, instead of doing a massive and expensive project all at once. Of course, there is a downside to this too: you're stuck with someone else's choices on selection of hardware, placement in the panel, and the like. If you're a control freak, it will cost you. But you'll end up with exactly what you want. Can't speak to those specific scenarios but some shops will give you free estimates to help you in your planning. Just be respectful of their time and don't abuse the privilege. And finally, make sure you set enough money aside for a surprise $10,000 bill that could arrive at any time. 1 Quote
ArtVandelay Posted July 7, 2020 Report Posted July 7, 2020 A good rule of thumb is avionics installation is 50% of the retail price, but with less expensive hardware this may not be true.Paint jobs start at $14K+ for a quality job. There’s a lot of variables that effect the price. Don’t forget some states charge sales taxes and some don’t (on aviation items) like Florida.Overhauls are the same: do they overhaul to new specs, news or just overhaul old mags, etc. And there can be unpleasant surprises: crankshaft is bad, case is cracked...and don’t forget the prop.New interiors, especially seats can make longer trips more comfortable.If you keep the plane for 10+ years, the amount you “lose” on your upgrades will be partially recovered when you sell, and that will be a small percentage of your total expenses: hangar, maintenance, insurance, avgas, training, etc over those years. If you enjoy flying, then you’ll enjoy flying an upgraded plane even more, IMO. 2 Quote
Bob - S50 Posted July 7, 2020 Report Posted July 7, 2020 11 hours ago, LDI said: Model Considerations - speed vs fuel flow; I assume C, E, and F are all going to be comparable and one is You can find out by reading these: M20C Review M20E Review M20F Review 1 Quote
Matt Ward Posted July 7, 2020 Report Posted July 7, 2020 12 hours ago, LDI said: Desired budget of around $75,000. If that's not possible maybe more but this is the purpose of the thread. To learn and understand base and upgrade costs. For example, $45k airplane and $30k upgrades or $65k airplane and less upgrades. This is one place I urge a little caution. The sales price & upgrades are the easy money to spend - it's entirely discretionary. The unexpected $5-10K (or more!) maintenance is what will make the difference. Ensure your budget will allow for that near certainty. Many of the planes in the $75K range are going to be +-50 years old and you'll be replacing more stuff than you might expect. Also, there is good money to spend and bad money to spend. IMO, things like interior & paint fall into the latter because they don't seem accretive to me. If it's a first plane, my personal advice, is to spend as little as possible so you really get it right on #2. I'm on my first plane and think about it like a first car: it did 90% of what my present car does, just with a bit less flash. You're probably not going to lose a bunch of money on these things unless you go overboard or really get into a lemon and end up parting out an old plane as a hobby. Mitigating the latter is probably more difficult than we'd like. Quote
LDI Posted July 7, 2020 Author Report Posted July 7, 2020 Wow, thank you everyone. I really appreciate the wisdom and advice. I'm excited to join the club and looking forward the search and this was really helpful in narrowing down my search criteria. The biggest thing I don't want to do is bite off more than I can chew and sounds like the major upgrade route could get tricky and expensive fast. I'll keep you posted as we get closer 1 Quote
Mcstealth Posted July 7, 2020 Report Posted July 7, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, carusoam said: Always get TT... Well, I knew there was going to come a time when I didn't know everything. Edited July 7, 2020 by Mcstealth 1 Quote
MooneyMitch Posted July 7, 2020 Report Posted July 7, 2020 57 minutes ago, Mcstealth said: Well, I knew there was going to come a time when I didn't know everything. Don’t worry..............you’re not there yet!! Quote
LDI Posted July 7, 2020 Author Report Posted July 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Mcstealth said: Well, I knew there was going to come a time when I didn't know everything. Yep I agree, but I'm new . TT is total time but I don't understand what is being referenced here... ? Quote
carusoam Posted July 7, 2020 Report Posted July 7, 2020 4 hours ago, Bob - S50 said: You can find out by reading these: M20C Review M20E Review M20F Review I committed to buying the M20C when Bob Kromer Wrote the review on the M20C... Mr. Kromer is very much an engineer and pilot... The review is now 20 years old and hasn’t aged very much at all including the pricing... Kept the M20C for a decade... Best regards, -a- I gave you the keys.... (I run out of time at the end of each day...) Note on TT... as referenced here... Transition Training... don’t skimp. Protect your wallet holder. PPI pre-purchase inspection... Protect you wallet. AAA all American Aircraft... now GMax... a great resource for finding used Mooneys. Fantastic resource for comparison shopping. Best regards, -a- Quote
LDI Posted July 7, 2020 Author Report Posted July 7, 2020 49 minutes ago, carusoam said: I committed to buying the M20C when Bob Kromer Wrote the review on the M20C... Mr. Kromer is very much an engineer and pilot... The review is now 20 years old and hasn’t aged very much at all including the pricing... Kept the M20C for a decade... Best regards, -a- I gave you the keys.... (I run out of time at the end of each day...) Note on TT... as referenced here... Transition Training... don’t skimp. Protect your wallet holder. PPI pre-purchase inspection... Protect you wallet. AAA all American Aircraft... now GMax... a great resource for finding used Mooneys. Fantastic resource for comparison shopping. Best regards, -a- Very helpful thank you! Quote
irishpilot Posted July 8, 2020 Report Posted July 8, 2020 C, E, or F are all great planes. My first Mooney was an E for a little extra speed and fuel injection. Regardless of the model, don't do what I did and buy a low TT plane thinking that was a benefit. Find something that is being regularly flown with impeccable mx. I got a great deal, but ended up spending $ to catch up on deferred mx. If you are looking at business travel, dispatch rate will matter and being in the NW means you'll have low ceilings to deal with. I recommend you find a plane with a good autopilot coupled to a WAAS capable GPS. 530W are fairly plentiful in the short body Mooney's. This will reduce your IMC workload and I found that for ease of filing and flying, I flew LPV app. If that app wasn't available at my destination, I'd fly the ILS. Lastly, budget for $10k in mx for first year. Hopefully you won't spend that much, but if you fly 100+ hrs a year, it'll be around that for annual, parts replacement, oil changes, etc.Good luck in your search!Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk Quote
SantosDumont Posted July 8, 2020 Report Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) You should define your required capabilities and go from there. When I was looking for a XC plane and realized that the Mooney had the best specs I narrowed my search down to my 3 must have capabilities: 1. Fuel Injection 2. Autopilot w/ coupled GPS 3. Manual Gear Which pretty much put me into a '67 F model. As far as how much does it cost, my best advice is be prepared to take it as a total loss, then be pleasantly surprised when it's not that bad. Maintenance has cost me about $10k per year consistently, but I fly about 200 hrs per year. Edited July 8, 2020 by SantosDumont Quote
LDI Posted July 8, 2020 Author Report Posted July 8, 2020 13 minutes ago, SantosDumont said: You should define your required capabilities and go from there. When I was looking for a XC plane and realized that the Mooney had the best specs I narrowed my search down to my 3 must have capabilities: 1. Fuel Injection 2. Autopilot w/ coupled GPS 3. Manual Gear Which pretty much put me into a '67 F model. As far as how much does it cost, my best advice is be prepared to take it as a total loss, then be pleasantly surprised when it's not that bad. Maintenance has cost me about $10k per year consistently, but I fly about 200 hrs per year. Thanks SantosDumont! Why the fuel injection requirement? Quote
irishpilot Posted July 8, 2020 Report Posted July 8, 2020 Fuel injection = No carb ice issues. However, hot starts can be temperamental.Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk Quote
geoffb Posted July 8, 2020 Report Posted July 8, 2020 My use is quite similar to what you are looking for. I'm in the Willamette valley and most of my travel is south to CA or east to eastern WA, ID, NV. I'm flying a 20E which I've had for 16 years. With 52 gallons usable I can make SLC heading east generally no problem. Coming home will often require a fuel stop as i start to get nervous over 4 hours. With 5 hours max fuel, small changes in winds can make a big difference over 600nm, probably reiterating the obvious. Where we live, and where you need to go, you will live and die by the MEAs naturally aspirated. It's 10,000 minimum to get out unless you run the gorge, but that only gets you down to 7,000 or so. Whenever there is weather, there is going to be ice over the Cascades or the Siskiyous. And that's really the only thing that impacts the utility of an E model out this way. Mine flies great at 14-15,000. Useful load is more than sufficient for 2 plus as much you reasonably need to take. The small, high baggage door keeps you honest. Manual gear and flaps make for brain-dead simple systems and therefore low maintenance cost. For one-person travel I love my homely old E model and the only reason we'd sell it is to get the improved utility the turbos and deice provide. But we stay on the fence as the current cost of ownership and cost of use are about as trivial as airplane ownership get. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted July 8, 2020 Report Posted July 8, 2020 Advantage of FI... Four independent (adjustable) deliverers of fuel... Obejctive: perfection of F:A ratio..... Very few carbs left in the automotive world... for essentially the same reason. Carbs work amazingly well. Don’t discount them accidentally... FI costs more to buy... The advantage comes out when operating LOP, smoothly... Best regards, -a- Quote
SantosDumont Posted July 8, 2020 Report Posted July 8, 2020 Yup pretty much what they said. I never ever want to deal with carb ice/heat. One less thing to worry about when IMC. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted July 8, 2020 Report Posted July 8, 2020 Just so you go in with eyes wide open... I own an F based in Spokane. It’s great during summer in Washington, so june, july, August, sometimes September. It’s not gonna get you across the cascades or into Spokane more than once a month from December through March. Maybe a few times a month the “shoulder” months. I don’t mind flying IFR, but Icing is a significant factor up here and I find it hard to fly my airplane anywhere in the winter. On days I can fly, it’s difficult to forecast the next days icing, so returning home is an issue. Local flights are the norm. Quote
Andy95W Posted July 8, 2020 Report Posted July 8, 2020 2 hours ago, SantosDumont said: Yup pretty much what they said. I never ever want to deal with carb ice/heat. One less thing to worry about when IMC. Carb ice in a Lycoming isn't the bugaboo most people think it is. Pretty much doesn't happen and definitely not a big deal. I'd much rather think about carb ice 2 or 3 times a year than a hot start in an IO-360 every time I go to get gas at a different airport. But it would be nice to cruise at the same speed LOP and save 3/4 gal per hour. 3 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted July 8, 2020 Report Posted July 8, 2020 47 minutes ago, Andy95W said: Carb ice in a Lycoming isn't the bugaboo most people think it is. Pretty much doesn't happen and definitely not a big deal. I'd much rather think about carb ice 2 or 3 times a year than a hot start in an IO-360 every time I go to get gas at a different airport. But it would be nice to cruise at the same speed LOP and save 3/4 gal per hour. Oh jeez, here we go with the hot start debate! For the record, I’ve almost burned up my starter only twice, and one of those times was when I first got it and didn’t know how to hot start it. Once you know, it’s real easy. Nothing wrong with the carb versions or the injected. I wanted the extra 20 horses, but they don’t make a huge difference. Quote
Andy95W Posted July 8, 2020 Report Posted July 8, 2020 43 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: Oh jeez, here we go with the hot start debate! For the record, I’ve almost burned up my starter only twice, and one of those times was when I first got it and didn’t know how to hot start it. Once you know, it’s real easy. Nothing wrong with the carb versions or the injected. I wanted the extra 20 horses, but they don’t make a huge difference. Counter point: I've never "almost burned up my starter." But if I had an M20F, I would absolutely want the extra 20 horses also. Quote
AUWDE Posted July 9, 2020 Report Posted July 9, 2020 LDI thank you for this post. I’m also new to the site and looking to get in to a Mooney. You have saved me a lot of time with this post. Thanks to everyone for the great information. A question not asked was ownership structure. This will be my first owned plane (not rental) and am curious if most owners structure an LLC for their planes? Quote
carusoam Posted July 9, 2020 Report Posted July 9, 2020 Welcome aboard auwde, The search function will really help you with the obvious questions... When it comes to LLCs... Of you are familiar with them, you already know their short comings... There is no magic bullet for protection. In the end, it is a personal decision that requires personal knowledge... We have a really good insurance guy around here... PP thoughts only, not a lawyer... Best regards, -a- Quote
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