Possible new magneto alternative!

[KSMooniac]

Today's Avflash has an interesting snippet and podcast about this company:

http://electroair.net/index.php/products/stc/ignition-kit.html

STC'd now for Cessnas with Lycoming engines (including the Cardinal with the dual mag!), and they mention Pipers and Mooneys are in the hopper.  No mention of the dual mag application, but their very last entry in the FAQ indicates that it will work alongside the dual mag with one side capped off, or perhaps with an alternative single mag that will use the existing dual mag mounting interface.

No mention that I can find either of how such a system will work with LOP ops either.  

[zaitcev]

If they replaced both magnetos, it would be interesting. BTW, the weight is absent from the blurb.

[KSMooniac]

I'd bet a dollar that it would weigh less than a conventional magneto, but for those of us with the siamese mag, it sounds like it would be a weight increase since the dual mag is still retained, but one side is rendered non-functional.  I already sent an email with a few questions, including one to find out if there is a drop-in conventional mag that could be installed on the -A3B6D engine to reduce cost and weight.

[Barry]

Gee ... I mentioned this a few months ago and everyone blew it off!! Said there would be no performance improvements, etc, etc.

They need to keep a mag in case of electronics failure. Can't wait for the Mooney STC. Looks as if it will be by the end of the year as promised.

[DaV8or]

So, how does that work with one mag fixed timing and the other variable?

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

How much does a magneto weigh?  Looks like total weight of this system installed is close to 8 pounds!

[M016576]

sounds like this could be a nice step forward in reliability... In the super hornet we have Permanent Magnetic Generators... solid state units that provide power to the flight controls in case the generator itself dies.  It's nice to see this sort of technology trickling down into GA!

[testwest]

Hi everyone

At last one company has broken the STC barrier for a full authority electronic ignition. And there will be more to follow.

I personally believe the product offered by E-Mag Ignitions (www.emagair.com) will be the optimum solution for dual-mag Mooneys. E-mags and P-mags have been flying for many years in the RV line of experimental amateur-built (E-AB) airplanes, along with a good group of other types. The Lycoming O-233 LSA engine is equipped with P-mags.

Below are some pictures of the E-Mag P-200-6X six-cylinder P-mag (by the way, the P in P-mag means the unit has an internal self-exciting permanent magnet alternator (PMG) for power, just like Job had wanted above). The dual-mag version for 4-cylinder Lycomings, which they also have been working on for some time, fits in the same case.

Unlike the Electroair, the P-mag has everything in the case that is same size or smaller than the mag it replaces. In the event of total electrical failure, the PMG kicks in and the engine keeps right on running, just like a mag. Therfore, a dual P-mag replacement for a Bendix dual mag would bolt right in, and you would change your ignition circuit to provide aircraft power to the unit. No need to retain any old magneto at all. During runup, both sides are checked as usual, and then power is removed completely to check the PMG operation.

These electronic ignitions offer HUGE advantages, due to the very high spark energy and the variable timing. It is realistic to expect an improvement in specific fuel consumption of 10%.  Based on fuel prices and the normal 500 hour mag OH cycle, one of these units would pay for itself in one overhaul cycle.  

For Barry in WV, whoever told you "no performance improvements" for these units did not know what they were talking about. I speak from hundreds of hours of personal experience flying LongEzs, RVs and others with electronic ignitions.

For Scott S., LOP is no problem. Take your "anti-upgrade" meds, then read this: Imagine the unit advancing the spark enough to pull the peak of that slow-rising inter-cylinder pressure back a little to the exact sweet spot phase angle on the power downstroke.

Unfortunately, and also unlike the Electroair, the E-Mag products are not yet STC'ed. Perhaps they may not know the size and/or enthusiasm of the potential market.

I think once the potential is realized in the Mooney crowd, E-Mag may find incentive to push along the certification. If I wasn't so dang busy at work, I would personally lead a crusade to find 25-40 early adopters willing to put down a some kind of (refundable) ernest money for getting these dual-mag replacements thru the STC process.

[testwest]

By the way, if anyone does a web search for Emag and finds a posting with some "warnings" here:

http://www.cozybuilders.org/Emagair_Warning/index.html

just go here for the actual story

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/archive/index.php?t-40586.html

And the most active folks for all electronic ignitions post here:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=74124

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69098

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/archive/index.php?f-103.html

(newest posts at the bottom of the index above)

Happy researching!!

[DaV8or]

Back to the unit that is available, how does the mismatched ignition system work? I mean, one mag is fixed timing and the other is variable, so does that mean that each cylinder might have two different sparks at different times? Is that a good idea? Maybe it is, I don't know.

[testwest]

No problem, the EI can be set to fixed timing, but you lose the advantages of variable timing. It would be better to have both sparks fire at the same time...here is a copy of the FAQ from here:

http://www.emagair.com/FAQ.htm#Can%20I%20run%20one%20traditional%20magneto%20and%20one%20E-MAG?

Quote

Q: Can I run one traditional magneto and one E-MAG?

A: Yes, but...  This is an inexpensive way evaluate an electronic ignition and start your transition.  You can wait on the second one, but you should consider converting it sooner rather than later.  Engines are designed for simultaneous firing from two plugs.  If you set the E-MAG to operate in Advance Mode,  it's plugs will fire either before or after the plugs from the magneto most of the time. The cylinder will fire on which ever plug fires first.  You do have the option of setting the E-MAG to operate in Mag Mode so it will match your magneto timing.  You will, however, lose the advantages of variable timing.  But at least you do have the choice.

 

 End Quote

There are hundreds of E-AB airplanes with thousands of hours set up like this, look at the index on my post above for just the RV types.

[M016576]

Quote: testwest

Hi everyone

At last one company has broken the STC barrier for a full authority electronic ignition. And there will be more to follow.

I personally believe the product offered by Emagair (www.emagair.com) will be the optimum solution for dual-mag Mooneys. Emagair E-mags and P-mags have been flying for many years in the RV line of experimental amateur-built (EAB) airplanes, along with a good group of other types. The Lycoming O-233 LSA engine is equipped with P-mags.

Below are some pictures of the Emagair P-200-6X six-cylinder P-mag (by the way, the P in P-mag means the unit has an internal self-exciting permanent magnet alternator (PMG) for power, just like Job had wanted above). The dual-mag version for 4-cylinder Lycomings, which they also have been working on for some time, fits in the same case.

Unlike the Electroair, the P-mag has everything in the case that is same size or smaller than the mag it replaces. In the event of total electrical failure, the PMG kicks in and the engine keeps right on running, just like a mag. Therfore, a dual P-mag replacement for a Bendix dual mag would bolt right in, and you would change your ignition circuit to provide aircraft power to the unit. No need to retain any old magneto at all. During runup, both sides are checked as usual, and then power is removed completely to check the PMG operation.

These electronic ignitions offer HUGE advantages, due to the very high spark energy and the variable timing. It is realistic to expect an improvement in specific fuel consumption of 10%.  Based on fuel prices and the normal 500 hour mag OH cycle, one of these units would pay for itself in one overhaul cycle.  

For Barry in WV, whoever told you "no performance improvements" for these units did not know what they were talking about. I speak from hundreds of hours of personal experience flying LongEzs, RVs and others with electronic ignitions.

For Scott S., LOP is no problem. Take your "anti-upgrade" meds, then read this: Imagine the unit advancing the spark enough to pull the peak of that slow-rising inter-cylinder pressure back a little to the exact sweet spot phase angle on the power downstroke.

Unfortunately, and also unlike the Electroair, the Emagair products are not yet STC'ed. Perhaps they may not know the size and/or enthusiasm of the potential market.

I think once the potential is realized in the Mooney crowd, Emagair may find incentive to push along the certification. If I wasn't so dang busy at work, I would personally lead a crusade to find 25-40 early adopters willing to put down a some kind of (refundable) ernest money for getting these dual-mag replacements thru the STC process.

[Barry]

Norman ... Yea, I knew there would be excellent performance improvements. I built drag race engines for quite a few years and realize what proper timing will do.

[testwest]

Thanks Job and Barry!

Here is a just-published article in Kitplanes on the P200-6X:

http://kitplanes2.com/blog/2011/07/e-mag-delivering-a-six-cylinder-unit-for-experimentals/

And for Job, do realize the very first takeoff in a Mooney with the replacement dual mag will carry some element of risk. That could be mitigated by flying from an airport with a full triangular runway layout (and light winds)....that way, if there is an engine failure anytime in the takeoff sequence, an engine-out landing on any runway can be made with very little risk. No "impossible turn required"...by the time you run out of runway to land straight ahead, you are already well placed for a base turn to the next runway.

Having a glider rating helps, too!

[bd32322]

what happened to the unison lasar system?

[testwest]

Lasar is still available, but it was not that popular. Champion bought the whole Slick line of products:

http://www.championaerospace.com/products/slick-magnetos/

Linking from this page is a company "Guide to Experience the Benefits of LASAR"

https://www.championaerospacepubs.com/docs/CAL2F_L-1512D.pdf

But many of the early adopters (especially those flying RV E-AB airplanes) had mixed experiences:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=66792

The dual P-mag shows the most promise from a concept standpoint for dual mag Mooneys, IMHO. If I didn't have a ^&*)^)*& dual mag 201, I would already be flying a pair of 114 series single P-mags with the airplane on an Experimental-Show Compliance special airworthiness certificate....

And yes, I did have an episode of 'Bendix Falls" happen. The mag case broke on the mag-to-engine interface, and the only thing keeping it from falling out was the harness. Lucky that Mooney engine compartments are tight, the mag didn't have much room to move. If it would have happened in a dual-mag Cardinal I would have had an engine failure for sure. Also lucky it was only a 10 minute flight.....

[bd32322]

testwest - thanks for the info

wondering how long it usually takes a company like emgair to produce an STC for Mooneys and get their product certified. I am new to the aircraft ownership and parts buying scene.

[PTK]

Quote: petterrjx

Just had an e-mail from my Mom. Her as well as my dad would like a new kitchen area and are following having a loan. I am 26 simply started a IVA and even live aware of them. This parents are typically there 50s and have more white than white credit documents. They have never missed obligations, havent bought any already present debt (help you save for home finance loan), few credit card with zero balances that will be used nonetheless cleared concerning pay day. They have never been refused credit score until now! They will applied with Santander who rejected. Then employed with Sainsburys whom accepted though a higher rate. My best mum thought we would see if the woman could add on to the bank loan but said people couldnt and therefore there was an email with a 'bankruptcy warning' placed on their submit. I have not skepticism that this can be as a direct outcomes of me getting in an IVA. When I inked the Individual voluntary agreement I had no idea it may possibly affect individuals my family having the capability to obtain approved payday loans? Will it be because My spouse and i live conversant in them?

[rbridges]

Quote: allsmiles

What the blank is this??!!

[danb35]

It's spam, just look at the link in his signature.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I just want to know how someone can possibly think that's going to be productive.

[DaV8or]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

I just want to know how someone can possibly think that's going to be productive.

[jetdriven]

yep thats a spam bot.  It isnt even human.