How to find my first Mooney

[chriman17]

Hi, I'm a low time pilot (100 hrs) who hasn't flown in approximately 5 years. During those years, life got in the way putting flying on the back burner. Anyhow, I begin training this week with my CFI where I will regain currency and hope to obtain my instrument and commercial rating. I'm currently located near NY0 but plan to relocate near RDU this fall. My mission will be for my wife and I to be able to travel back and forth between those two airports every month or two and occasionally bring a guest or two with us. We would also like to be able to travel on weekends to other locations around the east coast. My attraction to the Mooney has been the speed and efficiency, but my fear is the age. I'd like to keep my budget between 50/100k and have been wondering if that's a practical number to find a decent M20J? I'm finding most under 100k have experienced some sort of damage such as gear ups etc. Being relatively new to aviation, I don't really know how to value a decent plane, so I was looking for a little help. 

Features I'd like to have, GPS moving map, auto pilot, and something that isn't going to bury me in maintenance cost. 

My next question, given my low time, would this be a bad choice? My experience has been in a 67 Cherokee 160. I'm also wondering how I could go about getting training in the plane?

I found this guy, but it seems to have had a few incidents such as an engine failure causing it to land in a field and another engine failure with it's replacement along with a collapsed landing gear. My gut says stay away, but I don't know enough about planes to know if that's true. https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/33395537/1981-mooney-m20j 

Also is it recommended to avoid brokers?

Anyhow, I'm looking for a little guidance, so any recommendations would be helpful. 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by chriman17

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, chriman...

We have a few brokers around here that are excellent to work with...

I have a favorite, because when I was in your shoes, sort of...

I spoke with David at All American Aircraft... he gave the the full discussion I needed to know that an M20C was going to be a great plane for me...

It probably took a year or more for me to make that a reality... David’s words to me were something like... he didn’t mind me collecting data from him... he might not make a sale this time, but I'd probably be back the next time....

A decade later I returned... and bought an M20R... worth approximately 10X what my M20C sold for... Planes have some pretty strange economics....

So to get started...

http://www.allamericanaircraft.com/default.htm

Click on their inventory button and find what they have...  David and Jimmy do a great job of describing the key details required to buy a Mooney... and a few lines of fluff are thrown in for spice...  

act quickly, it’s been 20years since I first spoke with David... he announced his retirement recently... Great Mooney career, great informative sales guy, great make it happen guy, and a great person...

Determine your mission, what you need to accomplish that, know your budget, don’t get in over your head...

next steps...  PPI, Transition Training, IR....? Review these words, how they affect you, put a plan together, make it happen! 

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[201Steve]

You can find a quality J between 85 and 100. Probably closer to 100. E and F model substantially less. I’ll say this, having fully completed the mission just last year,  strap in. Do your general research and narrow down exactly what model you want. Read read read and ask questions. I changed desired models 4 or 5 times but when I knew for sure..... I savagely researched the market. Every single day, 3 times a day... for months. Through every single available outlet. Call people. Email them. Use forums.  Find out who the players are. I even went so far as to write letters. About 200 of them. Once you are intimately familiar with the market for your selected model, you’ll know what looks right and you better be ready to move quick. I’m talking:  on an airline  and at the seller as soon as possible. Have all your affairs in order to get ball rolling immediately. Some people may not be as fanatical about it as I was, and that’s where a broker would be quite handy and useful. To me, the full commitment probably saved me $10k I did not have to pay a broker, and that’s how I looked at it, but not everyone is willing or capable of the commitment. You have to think, there are people out there hustling the market every day and they do it for a living. You’re competing with them. There is a lot of junk out there. The trained eye knows a good bird quick and you either have to learn it or pay someone who already knows it. It was very rewarding at the end, but it was a long process. Stay focused and try to enjoy the process. Good luck to you sir

[Davidv]

The other two responses so far offered some great advice.  I was also a lower time pilot when I bought my plane and did not know anything about buying planes.  When it comes to damage, there is group of people out there who have no issues purchasing a plane that was damaged and repaired by a reputable shop with good documentation.  The consideration for you (if a trusted expert can get you comfortable with the repairs), is how long you want to own the plane and what kind of discount you're getting.  Because a lot of people are looking for undamaged planes, it may sit on the market for a lot longer when you eventually decide to sell.  The toughest part of this process is patience.  You see a great aircraft, call, and someone else had just offered full price with no PPI the day before (yes, that happened to me and I couldn't believe it).  So you start expanding your view to other Mooney models, start considering things you wouldn't have considered before "Could the damage to the wing really be that bad ;)" but you really just need to wait for your pitch (baseball analogy for today).  

[ArtVandelay]

I had 150 hrs when I bought my J.

For your budget, E or F is the models to look at.

Don’t spend all your cash when buying, keep at least $10K in the bank for unexpected maintenance.


Tom

[Guest]

The J you’re looking at in the Add have been converted to a Continental engine.  From a reliability stand point stick with a Lycoming powered model.

Clarence

[Greg Ellis]

Also, just be mindful of the fact that if you are purchasing an aircraft at this time be wary of the ADS B mandate coming up in a few short months (unless the FAA extends it which they swear they are not going to).  This aircraft is not ADS B out compliant.  You would need to budget that into your purchase as well as the time that it would take to do it since a lot of shops are getting backed up from what I hear.  Just a couple of things to consider if you plan on purchasing before the end of the year.

[WaynePierce]

I too went from a Cherokee (180) to a J model. I too went through AllAmericanAircraft. I too got my transition training from David but Jimmy was my sales guy. Can't compliment them enough. I found my plane from an email that Jimmy sends out to alert interested parties that one is coming in soon. The thing you will notice on the Mooney as opposed to the Piper is landing speed is crucial, you have to hit the numbers. If you're fast and at a shortish field, you will probably be going around. I still haven't nailed down the site picture and start my round out and flare at probably 4 to 6 feet, i wish that were inches

 

I'll also agree with making sure it is ADS-B compliant when you purchase. Mine was not and I purchased end of last year and I'm currently having problems getting a shop to install. I'm in a Class D, under a Class B so I'm starting to be concerned about getting compliant in time.

Edited June 24, 2019 by WaynePierce

[chriman17]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I really appreciate all the tips as this is one purchase I really don't want to make a mistake on. I happened to see a couple of clubs near RDU that have some Mooney's, is there any benefit to becoming a club member over soul ownership? I guess the question really is at what point does it make sense to purchase an older model vs being a part of a club with a newer model? 

[gsxrpilot]

I would seriously look at the club option. I'm surprised but you are correct, there are two clubs in the RDU area with Mooneys. One has an Ovation and the other has a couple of M20J's. Buying an airplane is such a large commitment, that a club will let you dip your toe in the pool, so to speak.

Most of us would say that the purchase price of an airplane is trivial to the ongoing care and feeding expense. A club can really mitigate that expense and allow to you fly a much nicer airplane. If you get to the point where the airplane's are not available enough for your schedule, then look at buying.

[chriman17]

I happened to come across those two clubs last night after creating this post. I liked the idea you could swap out different planes for different missions as well. 

[gsxrpilot]

There are lots of good reasons to own the airplane yourself. I've been an owner five years and wouldn't want it any other way.

But buying and selling have a cost associated and therefore it's best to buy what you know will satisfy your mission. Joining a club and flying lots of different airplanes will help to narrow the list of airplanes that fit the mission and allow you to make a better decision about what to buy.

[ArtVandelay]

A club can really mitigate that expense and allow to you fly a much nicer airplane.

By “nicer”, do you mean condition or capable? Most rentals I’ve seen a worn and tired: uncomfortable seats, cracks in leather and interior, no modern avionics, etc


Tom

[chriman17]

Tom 

http://www.raleighflyingclub.org/fleetandrates.php

There's another one with a couple M20Js too. At the very least it might be a good way to full understand my mission.

[gsxrpilot]

59 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

By “nicer”, do you mean condition or capable? Most rentals I’ve seen a worn and tired: uncomfortable seats, cracks in leather and interior, no modern avionics, etc

There's usually a difference between "rentals" and club planes. Not always, but usually. What I meant by "nicer" is that if your ownership budget is an M20C, you might be able to join a club and fly an M20J. 

I started my flying life by renting a pretty ratty Cherokee. Then I joined a club and had access to three very nice F33A's. In 2009 to have an 310 hp F33A for $165/wet was a bargain for me. There was no way I could afford to own that plane, but I sure enjoyed using it like I owned it as a member of the club.

Those clubs are not that easy to find though. And now that I know what I want in an airplane, and can afford to own it, I much prefer ownership. But starting with a club membership is a good way to avoid making a costly mistake buying the wrong airplane for your mission.

[irishpilot]

I happened to come across those two clubs last night after creating this post. I liked the idea you could swap out different planes for different missions as well. 

I've done both. Clubs are great if you fly mostly out-and-backs, or two day trips. If you like to go on longer trips, or have a schedule that constantly changes, ownership makes more sense.

However, agree that if you don't know which model you like, a club is a great way to get Mooney time (insurance will like that later) and dial in your "must have's" vs your "like-to-have's".

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[larryb]

I found this guy, but it seems to have had a few incidents such as an engine failure causing it to land in a field and another engine failure with it's replacement along with a collapsed landing gear. My gut says stay away, but I don't know enough about planes to know if that's true. https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/33395537/1981-mooney-m20j 
Also is it recommended to avoid brokers?
Anyhow, I'm looking for a little guidance, so any recommendations would be helpful. 
 

That is one unique Mooney. 1 of a kind composite panel. And a J with a continental engine? Not sure what to make of that listing.

I have bought two Mooney’s. One from a private party and one from a broker. Both went smoothly. Nothing wrong with a good broker if they have the plane you want.

[chriman17]

9 minutes ago, larryb said:

 

That is one unique Mooney. 1 of a kind composite panel. And a J with a continental engine? Not sure what to make of that listing.

I have bought two Mooney’s. One from a private party and one from a broker. Both went smoothly. Nothing wrong with a good broker if they have the plane you want.

 

I'm guessing it's best to stay away  I guess this is why I decided to make this post. 

[carusoam]

The key to the mods on this plane is ‘Mod Works’.  There are a few of these around MS...

Mod Works made a living out of updating older Mooneys with, in some cases, brand new Mooney factory parts...

Their marketing was a quirk of using similar names as the product they were trying to emulate... an example was their 262... it started as a 231 and got updated with all the engine hardware of a 252... the only difference was the 12V electrical system of the original 231...

The mods were properly executed, incredibly expensive, and thus not for everybody...

See how many STCs the plane got... part of the PPI review. Make sure all of the paperwork matches the airplane...

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

14 minutes ago, chriman17 said:

I'm guessing it's best to stay away  I guess this is why I decided to make this post. 

You are missing a detail.... see my post above for the explanation...

I’m in full agreement with Larry, just not the one-off part for Mod Works planes...

Mod Works business practices are legendary... but have little to do with their finished product.

The instrument panel is an update of an update... Mod Works added a digital LCD engine monitor called a VM1000 which has been replaced by a nicer JPI and other things.

Best regards,

-a-

[INA201]

Not sure if this is the same mod works plane that has been for sale for a looong time or not. I know there was one that sat on the market for a while. 

First Mooney

My suggestion is to come up with a specific list of things you want, what you will accept or not, budget,  and Prebuy inspection plan and list. Try to set up parameters that make particular planes a no go for YOU personally.  When you jump in a plane and take it for a test flight we all have the tendency to let emotions take over leading to possible mistakes.  Some folks keep a cool head in the buying process and some don’t. I may or may not be one to get overly excited haha and neglect things I shouldn’t. Have fun and be patient there is no hurry. The way maintenance shops are nowadays with the good economy it may be wise to get one that has had really really good MX too. The time savings up front will save a lot down the road.

[chriman17]

6 minutes ago, INA201 said:

Not sure if this is the same mod works plane that has been for sale for a looong time or not. I know there was one that sat on the market for a while. 

First Mooney

My suggestion is to come up with a specific list of things you want, what you will accept or not, budget,  and Prebuy inspection plan and list. Try to set up parameters that make particular planes a no go for YOU personally.  When you jump in a plane and take it for a test flight we all have the tendency to let emotions take over leading to possible mistakes.  Some folks keep a cool head in the buying process and some don’t. I may or may not be one to get overly excited haha and neglect things I shouldn’t. Have fun and be patient there is no hurry. The way maintenance shops are nowadays with the good economy it may be wise to get one that has had really really good MX too. The time savings up front will save a lot down the road.

What is a MX?

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, chriman17 said:

What is a MX?

Maintenance, well maintained.

[pinerunner]

On 6/24/2019 at 4:45 PM, chriman17 said:

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I really appreciate all the tips as this is one purchase I really don't want to make a mistake on. I happened to see a couple of clubs near RDU that have some Mooney's, is there any benefit to becoming a club member over soul ownership? I guess the question really is at what point does it make sense to purchase an older model vs being a part of a club with a newer model? 

I'm a sole owner and I think there's a lot to be said for club membership. It can be hard for a sole owner to fly the plane as much as it ought to be flown. It can be easier to get into and out of a club. The other members can give you feedback, be safety pilot for your IFR training, etc. My son started flying too so now we're kind of a family club.

[steingar]

2 hours ago, pinerunner said:

I'm a sole owner and I think there's a lot to be said for club membership. 

While I won't disagree I will point out that getting out of a club can be difficult.  When you go to sell an airplane you do so to a national market.  When you go to sell a club membership you do so to a local market.