201er Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 On many takeoff rolls (especially heavy), my 201 starts bouncing up and down on the nosewheel. Generally I hold back pressure but it does not take enough weight off and the oscilations continue. I've always learned to roll with back pressure on the stick and "feel the plane off the ground" (j3, c152, cherokee, etc). This doesn't seem to work with the Mooney though. It stays firm on the ground for a long time and then just starts flying when it wants to (and this varies by weight). In those other planes I could feel when it was close to taking off and often pick the nosewheel up off the ground before it began to fly. Not like that with the Mooney. As for the bouncing, is it better to continue holding back pressure anyway to at least have less weight bouncing on the wheel, keep stick neatural during the takeoff roll, or even push a bit forward to put more weight on the nose to prevent it from coming up to bounce? I'm careful not to compound the oscilation by leaving the stick wherever I had it rather than trying to counteract it. This sometimes occurs after the landing roll as well. So what I'm asking about is optimal Mooney takeoff technique and how to reduce the nosewheel bouncing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-sky-captain Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 You may want trim nose down a tad. When I first got my J the old instructor told me to just hold down on the nose wheel when it started bouncing, which turned out to be the wrong advice according to many other Mooney drivers with more hours than I have. On takeoff my trim tab is just a hair above the takeoff setting. If I go much higher than that it does tend to bounce a bit at higher speeds. Experiment with that and see how it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbrickey Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Try scheduling a couple sessions with Mooney instructor David Feinstein at Bridgeport CT (KBDR). I know a couple of us on this site use him for instruction. He can help with some of these questions. His email is david@newlangsyne.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Trim for takeoff. With the CG up front, you'll want a bit of backpressure to keep the nose bouncing under control. Our Mooneys are as smooth on the takeoff roll as the runway is, but you can minimize the bouncing with some backpressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Just try take off with no flaps. I never use flaps on take off. I had the bouncing problem you mention on wavy runways using flaps. With no flaps you get a smooth ground run with a clean positive rotation with no bouncing even on wavy runways José Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Quote: Piloto Just try take off with no flaps. I never use flaps on take off. I had the bouncing problem you mention on wavy runways using flaps. With no flaps you get a smooth ground run with a clean positive rotation with no bouncing even on wavy runways José Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 The flaps also have to be set just right to have their desired effect. Two pumps on the manual flap or where the flap angle matches a fully deflected aeleron. I make sure my flaps are in takeoff position when alerons full deflection match the flap angle. It seems to easily jump of the runway in this possition vs having to be pulled off the runway (it still wants to fly, it's just a leap when in the right position). I have not had a problem with a bouncing front wheel. One time the back wheels came off the ground and I was wheelbarreling down the runway on the nosegear, but again, only once and I have never let it happen again. Take care, -Seth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 same here,...I use the flaps (takeoff first notch)especially when heavy which is most of the time.The nose wheel bouncing is a product of the non oleo strut design and any iregularities in the runway.A fine touch on the elevator as well as proper trim cam smooth these out ,so a little time with a good instructor should help a lot.And then,again ,everyonce in a while I will encounter a "hump" in the runway when I least expected it and go bouncing down the runway...what fun!!!..good luck ..sinc kp couch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 It wants to fly early and this happens more often with a forward CG and lighter load, but it can heavy also. Trim up a hair, keep the nose pushed forward on the pavement until rotation. Gently pull back at 63KIAS. No more hopping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 I was concerned about this as well and I asked the Fantom about it. He said it's a normal characteristic of the gear design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepingsquirrel Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 I had a J model owner tell me before I went into an unimproved strip (less than golf course smooth) not to be alarmed about the nose bouncing from one side to the other. He also told me that I should NOT try to correct this with rudder , UNLESS I was headed off the runway. He told me that trying to correct this bounce would be out of phase and just make it worse. His advice was that one bounce would be one way the next bounce would be the other way . This he said they would average out untill lift off. I suspected this guy knew what he was talking about. I'm still listening and learning, and measuring veracity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerl Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 For those who haven't seen it, here's a reference that all mooney pilots should be familiar with, and taught me how to treat the beast in general. (although it might spark some "J" envy, maybe even in some TLS/Bravo owners who haven't taken the lottery!) Particular to this discussion, see paragraph where he (erstwhile mooney test pilot) says: "Experienced Mooney pilots always have a little aft pull on the control wheel during the takeoff. Try it; you'll like the results." He was referring to getting up on the nosewheel on takeoff, but using this techique I have seldom experienced significant bouncing on the ground ... er strike that I mean on takeoff . Could tire pressure be an issue? Mine calls for 30 in the mains and 49 in the nose. Oh, and ps I always use takeoff flaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bd32322 Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 201er - I flew at max gross for the first time this long weekend and I have had my plane for about 40 hours and was in for a surprise. The runway at my airport is a bit bumpy - so i normally maintain back pressure at around 60 knots - and I also do not use takeoff flaps because the runway is long enough and I dont like the pitch changes that take place when retracting flaps on this plane. Anyway, I was surprised at how flat of an attitude the mains lifted off the ground - then I tried to lift the nose and the stall horn started up - so I flew in a narrow band over the runway until I got a bit more speed and then went on my merry way. On the return trip I had takeoff flaps because the runway was a bit short (well not really - but 3000 feet). This time it took off just as quickly but tried to drop the nose on me this time. I am sure if I held the nose on the ground longer - the aircraft would be airborne on the nosewheel. Going to practise and see whats going on and head to Bridgeport to get some instruction from David (thanks tbrickey)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bd32322 Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 or I think I am just going to pull up on the nose earlier than 60 knots - maybe 55 and lead the plane into the climb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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