Recomendations on a M20F

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Hello all,

Allow me to introduce myself. I started flying about 12 years ago, and earned my PPL 6 years ago (it took so long do to age restrictions... had to wait to turn 17).

I have about 330 hours, which includes complex, gliders, insturment (hood and actual... almost finished my rating)

My wife and I have discussed this, and we believe we are ready to buy a plane. After years of reading, a Mooney seemed like a no brainer (anything but another 172!). Last weekend we drove to a local rental place that has an m20J I'm going to plan on building 10 hours of time in before buying.

I believe an m20f will be the best option for us. We would like to take friends on trips, and after having a third person sit in the back with my wife up front in the J model, I cannot immagine that working too well with a plane 10 inches shorter. In addition, I would much prefer a fuel injected engine.

Any tips, insight, or information would be much appreciated... and feel free to PM me if you know of an m20f for sale!

I have so far looked at the following options for planes currently on the market. I am in no hurry, so if none of these suit our needs, we will wait until something better pops up.

http://www.lasar.com/w/id/106/new-plane-details.asp#interestform

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20F/1970-MOONEY-M20F/1194061.htm?

http://www.learstevensaviation.com/aircraft_inventory_1967_Mooney_M20F_N645OQ.html

http://www.aircraftdealer.com/aircraft_for_sale_detail/Mooney/1968_Mooney_M20F_Exec_21/33478.htm

http://www.aircraftdealer.com/aircraft_for_sale_detail/Mooney/1967_Mooney_M20F_Executive_-_201_Mods_-_Nice!!!!!/29990.htm

- Scott

[jetdriven]

if you are planning on a cowl, panel, inner gear door,  or 201 windshield mod, just get the J.   An F is a fine aircraft as is.  Fuselage is the same size. 

[KSMooniac]

An F will do almost as well as a J but at far lower entry cost.  I started looking for one initially, but couldn't pass on what became my J when it turned up locally at a great price.  I stretched to get it, but it was worth it to me.  You didn't mention budget, but I'll go ahead and recommend you make a wish list of goodies and assign values to each one before you narrow down your list of candidate planes.  Know that you'll only get 50% max return on improvements you add such as avionics, autopilot, cosmetics, etc so it is always better to try to get a plane equipped as close to your wishes as possible.  When I was searching in '06-'07 I wanted a standard 6-pack panel, IFR GPS, some speed mods and hopefully an autopilot.  After flying 90% XC since purchasing, I would place the autopilot ahead of speed mods, especially after I learned how much they cost to add!  Cosmetics were less important to me as I didn't mind improving those to my standards, even knowing it wouldn't pay-off for resale.

[The-sky-captain]

When I first started looking I was under contract for a pre J model but it had issues on delivery so I ended up upgrading to a J which I am very happy with. I agree with Scott in that a good AP is great to have if you plan on doing a lot of X country and IFR flights, as well a IFR cert GPS. I lucked out and had a good paint job when I bought the plane but the cosmetic thing really wasn't that important at the time.

As I'm sure you know there are Mooney specific issues that you need to look at before purchasing a plane and I would also recommend using a Mooney Service Center for the prebuy. Last but not least really investigate the person/broker you are purchasing from. Without mentioning any names there's a guy in FL you want to stay away from. Myself, along with a few other members of this site, have all had major issues wth this man. Feel free to PM me, or research previous posts for more info. Good luck, you have made a good choice in going with a Mooney!

[aerobat95]

I ended up getting an 74F and love it.  Would I have liked to get a J sure but I paid signifcantly less than a comparable J.  The way I looked at it was now I can take the extra money and put it into the avionics.   If you can find a good J go for it but if not you will not be dissappointed with an F.  Only bad thing is that some of the mods are getting harder to find....good luck and if you have any questions feel free to PM me.

-Ray

[bgpilot1]

Scott,

I purchased my M20F 2 years ago and transitioned from a Cherokee 140.  Did plenty of reserach and have upgraded practically everything on the plane including paint, interior, avionics (garmin 430W, instruments, engine analyzer, autopilot) as well as the generator to alternator conversion, starter and wiring.  Also, I resealed the fuel tanks myself.  If I had to do it over again, I would buy the plane with the best avionics package available and one with recently sealed fuel tanks.  Speed mods are nice but not necessary.  Same goes for paint and interior less corrosion concerns.  As with buying most older airplanes, I would budget at least 10 percent for maintenance costs to fix the unknown problems.  A good prebuy is helpful but you will always find things to fix as you learn the airplane throughout the first year.  Finding a good local mechanic who knows Mooneys is a plus.  As no plane is ever perfect - costs to consider:

$4,000 - reseal 1 tank

$2,000 - rework panel to 6 pack configuration (estimate)

$8,000 + paint

$5,000 + interior (airtex)

Sign up with AOPA for their financing and aircraft valuation tools.  Get an insurance quote from Falcon Insurance.  Remember its still a buyers market so I would guess that you can take at least 5 percent off any price before prebuy concessions.  Finally, in a perfect world, I would buy a plane from someone who is upgrading to a bigger plane or downgrading to an LSA which could be an indication that they didn't skimp on maintenance.  

PM me with questions.

Barry

[Shadrach]

I would suggest that if you're going to get an F model, try and find an earlier one... 1968 on back. I think that the manual gear/flaps/cowl flaps are the best part of vintage Mooney ownership. I also prefer the early instrument access skins as opposed to the later access plate. 

I mean no offense to the owners of later models, I just like some of the nuances of the earlier birds as well as their lighter weight. Early F's have about the best fuel/payload of any Mooney model made. I have just under 1060 useful load to play with. 500nm with 800lbs payload is very doable...

[jetdriven]

didnt the 68 have the twisted wing?

 

[Shadrach]

Quote: jetdriven

didnt the 68 have the twisted wing?

 

[richardheitzman]

Don't rule out a M20E. Take into consideration how many time you think you will have that third or fourth person in the aircraft. There is plenty of room in a M20E in the backseat, especially with the split seat configuration and a new style interior (like the one you can get a Bruce Yeagers former Willmar owner, this is a shameless plug, but his new style seats give lots of extra space). The M20E has the same engine as the M20F. The M20E is lighter, and to me easier to fly. You can step into a M20E (1966 being the best as far as I am concerned) for thousands less then the M20F, and actually find one with a nice avionics package, and some even have extended range tanks, STEC autopilots, Garmin 430. I will be shopping for a M20E soon I think. My target will be no more then 40K with a engine under 500 hours and less then 5 years from rebuild/overhaul/new. Good IFR avionics and an updated 6 pack panel. either a 430 or a dock with the 496 and good comm/nave radios. I'm not asking for much right? LOL

[jetdriven]

I have many hours in the E and it is a rocket in takeoff and climb compared to the J, and in cruise is just as fast.

[Shadrach]

I guess its a weight thing...  My F will out climb the Bravo in the hangar across from me to 3500ft in the winter time... 

[DaV8or]

To the OP-

If you are thinking of buying an F because it fits you budget and then modding it up later to make it like a J, forget it. Available mods are drying up fast and they will cost you serious $$$. If you can enjoy the F for what it is in whatever state you find it, then go for it and save some money. If you're training in a J and you think you can stretch a little bit, just get a J. You're not going to enjoy coming home from your training and then flying your own plane and find it lacking. When they turned the Executive into the 201, they really did make it a better airplane. The 201 has reputation around the world for efficiency and speed and is considered by many to be the best Mooney ever made. It ranks in the top 10 of all GA planes ever made. The F is pretty much just known for being the plane they made the J out of.

The F does have some advantages over a J. Off the top of my head, they are-

Manual landing gear (only some years)

Manual, hydraulic flaps (only some years)

Higher useful load (Only those with manual gear and completely stock)

Retractable boarding step (only some years)

Greater forward visability over the panel (trade off- less panel space)

Cheaper

Cheek panels on the cowling

Better access to avionics and brake reservoir (stock winshield only)

I would only advise buying an F if you are truely happy with a vintage Mooney. If your budget says you have to have an F (this was ultimately my case) Buy one with as many speed mods on it as you can.

[crxcte]

I've owned my 68 F since 98 and thought of upgrading to a J but the useful load was not in the J.  I have a useful load over 1050 lb.  An older F is cheaper and will allow you the budget to upgrade on the latest avionics, etc.  Most of the Js I looked at needed updated avionics. 

[webspinner]

Thank you everyone for the information!

As a general reply to mostly everyone's comments, My budget is about 50 to 55K. We will be paying cash, so I'd rather not try to stretch another 10 or 15k to buy a J. Honestly, an F will be a HUGE improvement over every single airplane I have ever flown over the past 12 years of being a PPL. That to me is enough.

My main requirements so far are: about 1000 hours on the engine or less, IFR GPS, AP, decent paint and interior, recently sealed tanks, and if I am not already too picky, I would prefer an older plane with manual gear. I am having difficulty finding all of these in a single plane, and based on my own reading and several posts here, it would be better to find a plane with all of the equipment and avionics in it I want rather than pay to have them installed myself.

Just today, I actually found one right down the road from me here in GA: http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/Single+Engine+Piston/1976/Mooney/M20F/1286297.html

My only thought though is that the engine has more time on it than I would like. Any input on buying a plane with 1600 hours on the engine? Other than that it looks excellent! Especially considering it is the only mooney I could go visit in person in a 40 minute drive.

A few more things I would appreciate some input about: How long is a tank reseal good for, why would someone just reseal the left tank over both (as in this plane's case)? How much below the asking price would a decent offer be, 3 to 4k?

[jetdriven]

An F would be a huge improvement over anything else you can rent for sure.  It has the same engine as a 160$/hr Arrow but it is still 10-15 knots faster.

For me the deduction for engine time is not exactly linear, although the Blue Book would say so. The first 200 hours are free to the owner and the last 400 you can't sell for anything.  If it was 1600 hours SFOH and it was done in the last 8-10 years or so and flown regularly  it will likely run beyond 2000 hours. There are no guarantees with anything. Be prepared to pay for an overhaul.

I would imagine that he resealed the left tank because it was the only one leaking.  The repair job is as good as person who did it.  There is a wide range of quality, from a patch job to a full Willmar strip and reseal. Its all in the logs.

There are a lot of "9" P+I airplanes advertised out there.  According to the grading criteria that means done in the past couple years and no signs of use.

 

[Ned Gravel]

I had a similar circumstance when I was buying too.

I bought C-FSWR in 2005 with 1640 hours on it.  Four years later we found a crack in my crankcase at 1960 hours, so I had to overhaul it then. Otherwise, I would have kept it going "on condition."  You just have to listen real carefully to what your engine is telling you and take no chances.

Clarence and I both feel that it would have gone longer if it had been better maintained before I got it.

If the pre-purchase inspection shows OK, you will probably get another four years out of it. But it may not go beyond TBO.  If the pre-purchase inspection shows any maintenance shortcuts or sloppiness, you will be lucky to go to TBO. That kind of maintenance usually results in some problem or other that may only appear with the 240 million cycles representing 2000 hours of operation (assuming 2000 rpm of course).

Keep us posted on your options and your search.  Good luck

 

 

[DaV8or]

Quote: webspinner

Just today, I actually found one right down the road from me here in GA: http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/Single+Engine+Piston/1976/Mooney/M20F/1286297.html

My only thought though is that the engine has more time on it than I would like. Any input on buying a plane with 1600 hours on the engine? Other than that it looks excellent! Especially considering it is the only mooney I could go visit in person in a 40 minute drive.

[KSMooniac]

That F looks like a heckuva good buy IMO, even with those times.  Looks like great cosmetics and panel upgrades, and since it has been upgraded I would *assume* that it has been flying regularly and maintained accordingly.  I would verify that with the logs and check when the engine was overhauled.  If it has steady use since the overhaul, I wouldn't fret much at all with a 1600 SMOH engine...just know you're getting a great plane at a good price and budget for the overhaul.  If it has been sitting recently, then all bets are off and much closer study is in order.  The autopilot, 430, 330, and 340 boxes alone cost a significant portion of the asking price and finding ALL of those in a 30+ year old airframe that is for sale is quite rare IMO.

A Mooney-savvy inspection is still warranted, but I think that one is worth pursuing.  That is *exactly* what I was hoping to find 4.5 years ago but ended up with a nice J that cost 40k more...

[aerobat95]

I second what Scott says....if the plane has been reguarly flow and maintained then its has the potential to be a really good deal.  I would find out about the 430 and see if it was upgraded....if not could be a point to bargin with.  But, depending on where you are going to base it at, chances are there is an ILS near-by and even if there wasn't.....flying to minimums isn't fun.  Yes, it is nice to have that available to you, but I would not let that alone be a deal breaker.  Good luck.

[webspinner]

That's a bit more comforting. Looking at flightaware and myairplane.com, it looks like this plane was in Mass. just over a month ago and was sold through: http://www.nafsinc.com/sales/index.html to the company here in Georgia that owns it now. Interesting.

Although, it may not still be available when I am ready to buy in 2 to 3 months. 

Anyone had experience with DLK aviation in Kennesaw, GA? (for pre-buy)

[N601RX]

Quote: webspinner

That's a bit more comforting. Looking at flightaware and myairplane.com, it looks like this plane was in Mass. just over a month ago and was sold through: http://www.nafsinc.com/sales/index.html to the company here in Georgia that owns it now. Interesting.

Although, it may not still be available when I am ready to buy in 2 to 3 months. 

Anyone had experience with DLK aviation in Kennesaw, GA? (for pre-buy)

[webspinner]

Well, turns out someone just made an offer on this plane last night that the owner will likely accept. Oh well, I have several months to keep looking anyway

[KSMooniac]

I'm not sure how long that one has been on the market, but even in this economy the premium planes are selling quickly, and many times for a premium price.  When you get serious, be prepared to pounce when a good comes along!  Have your cash/financing ready to go, hangar/tie-down, insurance estimates, etc.  

The un-updated planes are languishing on the market, and might eventually get to be cheap enough where it does make sense to do a full panel upgrade, for example.  However, planes sitting on the market likely aren't flying either, so that leads to other problems...

[Shadrach]

This one is close-ish to you but alas has electric gear... Nice looking bird and may likely sell in the mid 40s...

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20F/1967-MOONEY-M20F/1184263.htm?

This is my idea of the best of old and new...If I could shoehorn a RayJay turbo-normalizer in there you'd have my idea of the perfect engine airframe combo...

  That should be a 160kt bird if not nearly. Unfortunately, the speed claims in the add make it sound like a dog. But then, he's a 25X25er...so who knows what it'll do when flown properly... 

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/Single+Engine+Piston/1967/Mooney/M20F/1330610.html